Indecision 08 Wingnut thread

[AFK]

That's why you incorporate it into high school and college education.  Community involvement and civic engagement are skills that need to be learned. 

I'm not opposed to having some community work involved in a civics class in high school.  But what i have heard rumblings about here is in regards to statements about a civil defense force that would be funded akin to the military that will have compulsory service of everybody 18-35 years old blah blah blah.....
it kinda morphed into 'helping old people cross the street' i think.

Well, perhaps you should read more about the actual plan instead of the rumblings. 

[Elder Iptuous]

That's why you incorporate it into high school and college education.  Community involvement and civic engagement are skills that need to be learned. 

I'm not opposed to having some community work involved in a civics class in high school.  But what i have heard rumblings about here is in regards to statements about a civil defense force that would be funded akin to the military that will have compulsory service of everybody 18-35 years old blah blah blah.....
it kinda morphed into 'helping old people cross the street' i think.

Well, perhaps you should read more about the actual plan instead of the rumblings. 

This is the wingnut thread.  this started with a discussion of wingnut rumblings....
i kinda got wrapped up.  disregard me as necessary. 

[Elder Iptuous]

Here are the quotes from Rahm Emanuel that was getting the rumblings going....

Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, President-Elect Barack Obama's choice for chief of staff in his incoming administration, is co-author of a book, The Plan: Big Ideas for America, that calls for, among other things, compulsory service for all Americans ages 18 to 25. The following excerpt is from pages 61-62 of the 2006 book:

"It's time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service.

Here's how it would work. Young people will know that between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, the nation will enlist them for three months of civilian service. They'll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community, where they will learn what to do in the event of biochemical, nuclear or conventional attack; how to assist others in an evacuation; how to respond when a levee breaks or we're hit by a natural disaster. These young people will be available to address their communities' most pressing needs."

[Payne]

Here are the quotes from Rahm Emanuel that was getting the rumblings going....

Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, President-Elect Barack Obama's choice for chief of staff in his incoming administration, is co-author of a book, The Plan: Big Ideas for America, that calls for, among other things, compulsory service for all Americans ages 18 to 25. The following excerpt is from pages 61-62 of the 2006 book:

"It's time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service.

Here's how it would work. Young people will know that between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, the nation will enlist them for three months of civilian service. They'll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community, where they will learn what to do in the event of biochemical, nuclear or conventional attack; how to assist others in an evacuation; how to respond when a levee breaks or we're hit by a natural disaster. These young people will be available to address their communities' most pressing needs."

And what's the problem with that?

[AFK]

Here are the quotes from Rahm Emanuel that was getting the rumblings going....

Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, President-Elect Barack Obama’s choice for chief of staff in his incoming administration, is co-author of a book, The Plan: Big Ideas for America, that calls for, among other things, compulsory service for all Americans ages 18 to 25. The following excerpt is from pages 61-62 of the 2006 book:

"It’s time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service.

Here’s how it would work. Young people will know that between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, the nation will enlist them for three months of civilian service. They’ll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community, where they will learn what to do in the event of biochemical, nuclear or conventional attack; how to assist others in an evacuation; how to respond when a levee breaks or we’re hit by a natural disaster. These young people will be available to address their communities’ most pressing needs."

1) Barack Obama is the President-Elect, not Rahm Emmanuel
2) Umm, hello, Katrina?

[Iason Ouabache]

Here are the quotes from Rahm Emanuel that was getting the rumblings going....

Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, President-Elect Barack Obama's choice for chief of staff in his incoming administration, is co-author of a book, The Plan: Big Ideas for America, that calls for, among other things, compulsory service for all Americans ages 18 to 25. The following excerpt is from pages 61-62 of the 2006 book:

"It's time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service.

Here's how it would work. Young people will know that between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, the nation will enlist them for three months of civilian service. They'll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community, where they will learn what to do in the event of biochemical, nuclear or conventional attack; how to assist others in an evacuation; how to respond when a levee breaks or we're hit by a natural disaster. These young people will be available to address their communities' most pressing needs."

I still haven't gotten an answer from anyone on how this Civil Service group is any different from the National Guard (or what the National Guard was originally supposed to be).

[AFK]

Well, it seems much more civilian to me. 

[Elder Iptuous]

And what's the problem with that?

We've already gone over that.  we seem to disagree, but it's there to review, if you wish.

1) Barack Obama is the President-Elect, not Rahm Emmanuel
2) Umm, hello, Katrina?

yes, i know.  but just as the wingnuts are reaching in thinking that his thoughts will necessarily translate into policy implemented, it would be equally naive to think that appointments of people with certain views do not have an influence at all.  Particularly on such an important position, where he will be in charge of appointing other people (who will presumably share his opinion).
Re: the katrina thing.... wut?

[Cain]

Incidentally, my town just flooded.  Like literally.  I was lucky to get across the bridge in time.  In theory, I could go to the other end of town and cross via a small road, then walk all the way back down around....which is what everyone will be doing tomorrow. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

While I would prefer that everyone be involved with their community... I think conscription of any sort is unacceptable.

National Service |= conscription.

TIA.

While I would prefer that everyone be involved with their community... I think Required National Service of any sort is unacceptable. However, Civil disaster and emergency skill training being a mandatory aspect of High School, seems entirely reasonable to me.

The most stupid thing about America today, is our astonishing lack of preparedness when it comes to self-preservation. It's as though "modern" reality is simply assumed not to have major disasters just waiting in the wings. When I was a kid, I remember fire safety week and tornado safety week. There were little flyers we had to take home and work with our parents to show what our family plan was if there was a fire or tornado. Yet, how many Americans, right now, do you think have plans for disasters? It's not difficult to figure out which 'bad things' might happen in your geographical area. Here in Columbus, Fire, Tornado and maybe, in some really bizarre and weird turn of events, a earthquake (though the fault line in our area is pretty weak).  If you live in New Orleans... maybe you should have some bottled water, canned food etc. stocked away. Maybe you should also have an exit plan.

One of my friends runs a charity group that has helped a lot NOLA refugees here in town. One of the most interesting things I've picked up form those discussions is the complete unpreparedness of the individuals. They weren't prepared with food or water or even a plan of what to do, where to go and a number of them have commented that they didn't even know what the city's plan for disaster actually was. They didn't know where they were supposed to go or anything else. While NOLA surely bears some responsibility (their plan was not good), their plan was publicly available. It was public knowledge that NOLA was in a position of serious risk... yet, many individuals simply didn't prepare. One single mom of three said to me "Well, we just assumed that the government would tell us what to do."

Somehow, between 1900 and 2000 we have a whol;e load of people that think "The government will tell us"  is a decent plan for survival.

Yet, NOLA shows us EXACTLY why its such a bad idea to trust survival to the government. When the waters are rising, the government may not be there... local 'First Responders' may be saving their own families, the feds may be run by Incompetent Brownie and there may simply be logistical issues with getting someone to where you are (like, having a hurricane in the way or something like that). Simply put, when disaster strikes you, the one person you know will be there is... You. If someone else shows up, all the better.

If Rham's point is that we need to get over this dearth of ignorance and laziness, then I'm 100% behind it. Compulsory government training... good. Compulsory government service... not good.

[Cain]

Incidentally, my town just flooded.  Like literally.  I was lucky to get across the bridge in time.  In theory, I could go to the other end of town and cross via a small road, then walk all the way back down around....which is what everyone will be doing tomorrow. 

Further hilarity: the regional flood defence office is having MAJOR communication problems.  The phones are down, email is down and they can only use mobiles, which are unreliable because this is a hilly region.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Incidentally, my town just flooded.  Like literally.  I was lucky to get across the bridge in time.  In theory, I could go to the other end of town and cross via a small road, then walk all the way back down around....which is what everyone will be doing tomorrow. 

Further hilarity: the regional flood defence office is having MAJOR communication problems.  The phones are down, email is down and they can only use mobiles, which are unreliable because this is a hilly region.

And that is why Eris is the goddess of Bureaucracy!

[Iason Ouabache]

God Save Ameriuh!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSBNHpLzV7M

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Incidentally, my town just flooded.  Like literally.  I was lucky to get across the bridge in time.  In theory, I could go to the other end of town and cross via a small road, then walk all the way back down around....which is what everyone will be doing tomorrow. 

What the fuck. Damn, dude!

[Iason Ouabache]

BTW, the Freepers are boycotting Fox News for being "too liberal".  I wish I was making this up.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2127130/posts