Possible New Metaphor

[Valerie - Gone]

Cainad and I were chatting the other night and I may have found a new metaphor regarding the BIP.

Cainad   1:49am
Knowing that you have to is a big step
It's easy acknowledge the BIP and then assume that, because you know about it, you have escaped it.
Unfortunately, there's work involved.
Valerie   1:50am
Well, yeah... A jailbreak doesn't 'just happen'
You got to dig through the wall with your little spoon
Cainad   1:50am
Exactly.
lol
I love that; it just might be worth expanding on that metaphor for future use.
Valerie   1:51am
Should I mention it on PD.com somewhere?
Cainad   1:52am
Once you have a decent idea of what the spoon is, yeah.
I would call it self-skepticism. But that's just me.
Valerie   1:52am
I was thinking something along the lines of "Question Everything", which is skepticism...

I was thinking about it last night and here's what I came up with. This is basically taken from a notepad where I brainstormed.

The Spoon is the tool you use to make a jailbreak. It is used to chip away at your prison walls and dig out of prison.

Metaphorically, it is:
   1. Brain (way too literal, not a good metaphor)
   2. Skepticism/Self-skepticism -> "Question Everything" (from my convo with Cainad.)
   3. Logic. (Goes with Skepticism. You have to use logic to disassemble arguments and reasoning.)

I think that the Spoon is a combination of 2 and 3. Skepticism is what will get you asking yourself "Why? Why do I think that way?" and logic will not only help you to answer that question, but lead you through the process of perpetually questioning and answering yourself.

By using logic, you can figure out if a belief you have is worth keeping. If you can't logically explain why you have a belief, you would want to drop it, wouldn't you? When you drop a belief that isn't worth keeping using this process, the Spoon, you have made it through one brick, or one layer of the wall, of your prison.

What do you guys think? Good metaphor, bad, needs more work?
Any other suggestions for what the Spoon may be?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm not sure that logic is what we necessarily want to use here... Logic seems, to me,  just another game of ordering things... people can 'logically' come to all sorts of conclusions which may or may not help you escape your BiP... "Logic", in some sense might be part of someone's BiP.

Skepticism and Self-skepticism seems like good concepts to go with...

In my opinion (useful or not) breaking out of the BiP may best be achieved through Neuroplasticity. Regularly stretching your brain into areas that it hasn't gone before, or that it might not usually go. Picking up temporary belief systems, embedding yourself with people that believe differently than you, reading books that you would normally disagree with... all of those things, I think can break down the BiP (or at least one sort of BiP).

Just knowing that your in the BiP isn't enough... Logic may or may not help. Doubt and Uncertainty will probably help a lot and Neuroplasticity, I think, might be your spoon, in some sense.

[Valerie - Gone]

I'm not sure that logic is what we necessarily want to use here... Logic seems, to me,  just another game of ordering things... people can 'logically' come to all sorts of conclusions which may or may not help you escape your BiP... "Logic", in some sense might be part of someone's BiP.

Skepticism and Self-skepticism seems like good concepts to go with...

Logic may have been the wrong word to use. When I say logic, I mean... I'm not really sure what word to use. You have to be able to answer the questiong of "Why do I hold that belief or idea?". Just questioning (being skeptical) doesn't necessarily give you the answers. The process of answering that question is what I meant by logic. I need another word to use in place of logic, because it's not really what I meant.

In my opinion (useful or not) breaking out of the BiP may best be achieved through Neuroplasticity. Regularly stretching your brain into areas that it hasn't gone before, or that it might not usually go. Picking up temporary belief systems, embedding yourself with people that believe differently than you, reading books that you would normally disagree with... all of those things, I think can break down the BiP (or at least one sort of BiP).

This idea intrigues me. Can you explain why these things can break down the BIP?

Just knowing that your in the BiP isn't enough... Logic may or may not help. Doubt and Uncertainty will probably help a lot and Neuroplasticity, I think, might be your spoon, in some sense.

Doubt and uncertainty kind of go hand-in-hand with skepticism, don't they?

[Voodoo]

Is this a philosophical question like St. Augustine where it is a question of whether you yourself can do it through logical and deductive reasoning, or whether you need outside assistance (mindfuck = divine intervention) to achieve your goal.

       "Sometimes a spoon is just a spoon"
                        /

[Daruko]

There has always seemed to be a limitation to the BiP for me, and that is that there is this "goal" easily misconstrued as making the permanent escape.  This is as lofty and as undesirable a goal as freeing oneself of the ego.   A self without an ego is not much of a self, and this sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it?  I mean, why not just kill yourself?  

This isn't so much that the metaphor doesn't work, as it is a limitation for it's application.  I think in many circumstances the Map/Territory and Reality-Tunnel/Other-Reality-Tunnels metaphors illustrate the picture more clearly for me.   Being aware of your BiP/Reality-Tunnel is useful, not for escaping it permanently, but in "changing the bars and walls" or in "tuning in to what you're tuning out".

The difference between one stuck in one's BiP, and one who attempts the jailbreak is that the former is unwittingly playing a game with strict unchanging rules, and the latter is able to adapt and play games at will, with flexible rulesets.   Do what thou wilt, and look at what you are doing... or perhaps look at what you are NOT doing.   Along the lines of Ratatosk's "neuroplasticity" concept are the concepts of "belief-shifting" and "paradigm piracy", which refer to the fluidity of beliefs when applied at will rather than unconsciously, and correct me if I'm wrong, but at least in part, metaphorically speaking, I think the spoon lies there.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm not sure that logic is what we necessarily want to use here... Logic seems, to me,  just another game of ordering things... people can 'logically' come to all sorts of conclusions which may or may not help you escape your BiP... "Logic", in some sense might be part of someone's BiP.

Skepticism and Self-skepticism seems like good concepts to go with...

Logic may have been the wrong word to use. When I say logic, I mean... I'm not really sure what word to use. You have to be able to answer the questiong of "Why do I hold that belief or idea?". Just questioning (being skeptical) doesn't necessarily give you the answers. The process of answering that question is what I meant by logic. I need another word to use in place of logic, because it's not really what I meant.

Introspection, maybe?

In my opinion (useful or not) breaking out of the BiP may best be achieved through Neuroplasticity. Regularly stretching your brain into areas that it hasn't gone before, or that it might not usually go. Picking up temporary belief systems, embedding yourself with people that believe differently than you, reading books that you would normally disagree with... all of those things, I think can break down the BiP (or at least one sort of BiP).

This idea intrigues me. Can you explain why these things can break down the BIP?

Well, I think we could argue that our BiP, in large part is a product of our beliefs, our 'perceptions', in short, its made up of the experiences we've had and the things we think are True and/or False. If I can backtrack on metaphors for a second, it's your "reality tunnel". The Neuroplasticity exercises allow you to shift that tunnel, and see some other aspect of the universe of ideas and beliefs. Whats really interesting, for me, is how easily my own views can change, if I surround yourself with a particular belief system. If I read Ann Coulter and hang out on LGF when I;m being "Conservative" I can see good conservative arguments. If I do that over at Daily KoS, I can see good liberal arguments. Etc Etc

The Bars in our BiP, I think, the walls and floor, they might be made out of our experiences, or they might just be the false limits we put in place whenever we stopped exploring and decided we found something. The exercises above (along with lots of others) seemed to help my brain get over the places where I stopped exploring and its a good way to go exploring again and again.

Of course, you'll find that my view of the BiP and some other views aren't exactly the same.

Just knowing that your in the BiP isn't enough... Logic may or may not help. Doubt and Uncertainty will probably help a lot and Neuroplasticity, I think, might be your spoon, in some sense.

Doubt and uncertainty kind of go hand-in-hand with skepticism, don't they?
[/quote]

Yes, that's why I said them.

It's also important, I think to be an actual skeptic, rather than a pseudo-skeptic.

I liked Crowley's rant on the subject: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/liber148.pdf

Also, this bit might directly apply:
http://www.geocities.com/nu_isis/liber474.html

[Cainad (dec.)]

I'm not sure that logic is what we necessarily want to use here... Logic seems, to me,  just another game of ordering things... people can 'logically' come to all sorts of conclusions which may or may not help you escape your BiP... "Logic", in some sense might be part of someone's BiP.

Skepticism and Self-skepticism seems like good concepts to go with...

Logic may have been the wrong word to use. When I say logic, I mean... I'm not really sure what word to use. You have to be able to answer the questiong of "Why do I hold that belief or idea?". Just questioning (being skeptical) doesn't necessarily give you the answers. The process of answering that question is what I meant by logic. I need another word to use in place of logic, because it's not really what I meant.

Introspection, maybe?

I have a friend who introspects like you wouldn't believe, but in her case her BIP only gets stronger and more complicated.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm not sure that logic is what we necessarily want to use here... Logic seems, to me,  just another game of ordering things... people can 'logically' come to all sorts of conclusions which may or may not help you escape your BiP... "Logic", in some sense might be part of someone's BiP.

Skepticism and Self-skepticism seems like good concepts to go with...

Logic may have been the wrong word to use. When I say logic, I mean... I'm not really sure what word to use. You have to be able to answer the questiong of "Why do I hold that belief or idea?". Just questioning (being skeptical) doesn't necessarily give you the answers. The process of answering that question is what I meant by logic. I need another word to use in place of logic, because it's not really what I meant.

Introspection, maybe?

I have a friend who introspects like you wouldn't believe, but in her case her BIP only gets stronger and more complicated.

Heh, she's using the spoon to work her way up in the kitchen staff rather than digging out?

Maybe escape is different for everyone, some use a spoon, some bend the bars, some use a jackhammer or salsa and DC current, some never do explain...

[LMNO]

I dunno about Spoon, but I do know that Rat's got a good notion on "neuroplasticity".


If we consider that the BIP is made up of conditioning, experience, and bias (among other things), then re-conditioning, new experiences, and new biases will change the BIP.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I dunno about Spoon, but I do know that Rat's got a good notion on "neuroplasticity".


If we consider that the BIP is made up of conditioning, experience, and bias (among other things), then re-conditioning, new experiences, and new biases will change the BIP.

YES

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

How about a spork?

[Valerie - Gone]

How about a spork?

I dunno... I think the tines would break...

There has always seemed to be a limitation to the BiP for me, and that is that there is this "goal" easily misconstrued as making the permanent escape.

That made me think this:
When you escape from prison, there are usually people looking for you. To avoid getting caught by these people, you need to change the way you look (in the BIP metaphor, you need to change your bars). You always need to be on guard for the people who are trying to find you; you need to change how you look every now and then so that you won't be so easily recognized. If you let your guard down and stay with one look for too long (don't examine your bars and Shrapnel every now and then), then They will find you and throw you back into prison, and you'll be back where you started, as someone else said in another thread, loaded down with Shrapnel and beliefs you don't need.
I dunno. Maybe I'm taking the prison metaphor too seriously...

I have a friend who introspects like you wouldn't believe, but in her case her BIP only gets stronger and more complicated.

Heh, she's using the spoon to work her way up in the kitchen staff rather than digging out?

That made me laugh. And it's also true. But, Cainad makes a good point. Introspection also isn't the word I'm looking for.

It's also important, I think to be an actual skeptic, rather than a pseudo-skeptic.

I liked Crowley's rant on the subject: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/liber148.pdf

Also, this bit might directly apply:
http://www.geocities.com/nu_isis/liber474.html

I read Crowley's rant. It made my head hurt. It was like trying to read Aristotle, only Aristotle was easier to read because his work had a wiki and he repeated what he was saying three or four times in case you didn't get it the first time around. I think I got what you mean about being an actual skeptic, though. In that context, then skeptic is the word that I'm looking for. So, the Spoon = Skepticism. Also, I didn't understand what the second link applied to, or why it applied to it. Please explain.

If we consider that the BIP is made up of conditioning, experience, and bias (among other things), then re-conditioning, new experiences, and new biases will change the BIP.

And things become a little bit clearer for me.

[singer]

I dunno about Spoon, but I do know that Rat's got a good notion on "neuroplasticity".


If we consider that the BIP is made up of conditioning, experience, and bias (among other things), then re-conditioning, new experiences, and new biases will change the BIP.

Change?  Maybe not so much... Refine the definition of other walls/bars?... yeah, probably.
I like the neuroplasticity thing too though.

[LMNO]

I dunno about Spoon, but I do know that Rat's got a good notion on "neuroplasticity".


If we consider that the BIP is made up of conditioning, experience, and bias (among other things), then re-conditioning, new experiences, and new biases will change the BIP.

Change?  Maybe not so much... Refine the definition of other walls/bars?... yeah, probably.
I like the neuroplasticity thing too though.

If you take a Jehova's Witness (like Rat used to be), and look at his cell then, and then you send that JW though process of drugs, sex, and chaos magik (like Rat went through), and you look at his cell now, you will find out it has Changed pretty much completely.  Except for his Scars®.

LMNO
-metaphor mixer.




Also, to Rat:

I don't know if I've said this yet, but one of the reasons I like the "no escape" form is because of the old addage that it's not the destination, it's the journey.  Or as Uncle Al said, "A true initiation never ends."  Because progress comes from escaping.  If we posit an Escape, then we posit an Conclusion.  Which will lead Some People to conclude that they Made It Out, and don't have to worry about it anymore.

Which is very, very stupid.  And I'm trying to exclude as many obviously stupid loopholes in my thinking as possible.

But again, I see your point, so...  I'll STFU.

[Voodoo]

I guess I would compare it to the asian horror movies that have recently crept into the american scene--there is no way out.  Once you have been in the house, or seen the movie, or whatever, you are fucked.  Knowing that you are fucked helps you deal with it, but you are still fucked.  You end up dead, period.

There is no jail break.