Author Topic: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?  (Read 69091 times)

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #195 on: October 02, 2008, 01:19:38 am »

Cain

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #196 on: October 02, 2008, 12:55:31 pm »
HIMEOBS: it sucks and swallows.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #197 on: October 02, 2008, 07:01:32 pm »
Did we become Discordian, or did we recoginize our discordian nature?


That's an interesting idea.

So I thought about this some more and I think I know what inspired it. I have been rereading Trickster Makes the World. It has limited usefulness, but some bits are pretty good. Anyway, one of the stories talks about how Coyote is always imitating the nature of the other animals.... All of the animals have a nature,l except for the trickster, his 'nature' is imitation and manipulation of the nature of other animals.

Why that led to Discordian Nature, I dunno... but I'm pretty sure that's the seed the term sprouted from....
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #198 on: October 02, 2008, 07:04:33 pm »
Well Rat, considering that most of our belief systems are cribbed from other systems (or at least, we're honest about who we steal from), that makes sense.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #199 on: October 02, 2008, 07:29:25 pm »
Well Rat, considering that most of our belief systems are cribbed from other systems (or at least, we're honest about who we steal from), that makes sense.

Sure... though I think it may mean more than just that.

The conservative has his nature, the Liberal has his nature, the Pagan has their nature and the Scientific Materialist has their nature. Yet, most of us here, seem able to grok those natures, imitate those natures and play with those natures... but not necessarily identify with those as Our Nature. That seems to follow along with TFYS! and even modification of one's BiP.

However, this seems to often be the nature of humans, though, perhaps they refuse to admit it to themselves. It seems that we might be able to take a person out of their tribe of like minded individuals, surround them with a new tribe of differently thinking individuals and they adopt the nature of the new tribe.

They are replacing one mask with another... perhaps both masks were for 'fitting in', for tricking the group to accept the individual. Was the person nature truly *insert nature here*, or was their nature one of wearing masks? If its the latter, then perhaps the only difference between the Discordian and the Cabbage, is that the Discordian may better grok, or at least admit to their Discordian Nature.

John McCain, once had the Nature of a Maverick. Now he has the Nature of a Conservatard.

George Bush once had the nature of a moderate, compassionate conservative, with a good record of working with democrats. Has he changed his nature, was that just a mask, or was that and the Nature he displays now, both just masks to fit his purposes?

We can roll on and on with this... Some atheists seem to have a questioning nature, a skeptical nature... but over time, once they have a tribe of fellows... they often appear to swap those natures/masks for a Know All, pesudo-skeptical nature.

If 'Discordian Nature' exists, I think it may exist in everyone... some of us can see it, and use it... others ignore it and allow it to run them, rather than vice versa, or maybe they use it in ways that are not at all positive (the Con man, surely has the nature of the trickster, no?)

anyway, just more random drivel...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

the last yatto

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #200 on: October 11, 2008, 05:54:43 am »
this is just asking for a BBQ

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One such place is Concordia Park, which was recently named St. Louis' best picnic spot by the Riverfront Times.  The 1.5-acre park is located on the east side of campus, near the intersection of DeMun Avenue and Northwood Avenue.  During the summer, people from the seminary community and other St. Louis residents come to Concordia Park to listen to the carillon concerts.

http://concordiablogcabin.typepad.com/


Concordia University - Wisconsin,
 Concordia University - Texas,
 and Concordia University - Chicago.

 :?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 06:13:13 am by YattoDobbs »
Look, asshole:  Your 'incomprehensible' act, your word-salad, your pinealism...It BORES ME.  I've been incomprehensible for so long, I TEACH IT TO MBA CANDIDATES.  So if you simply MUST talk about your pineal gland or happy children dancing in the wildflowers, go talk to Roger, because he digs that kind of shit

Manta Obscura

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #201 on: October 24, 2008, 04:47:27 pm »
I've never given mittens before, but Cram and Payne definitely deserve them, so...
 :mittens:
I just want to say that both of your posts spoke to me, in different ways. Cram, yours spoke to me on an intellectual level, and Payne, yours on an emotional level. They both hit something inside. It would be an honor and a privilege if I ever get the chance to meet either of you.

Payne, would you mind if I distributed yours somewhere? I'm thinking of posting yours and Cram's posts on my myspace or something, giving credit, of course.

I don't really have the time to answer the question right now (shouldn't even be on here), so I will have to come back to this. Sorry, but felt that I needed to say the above.

You took the words from my mouth, Valerie.  :D  I'll go back and read the rest of the posts in a moment, but for right now I have to ruminate on what I've heard thus far, and cast my own voice into the fray:

Why is Discordia still relevant in 2008? When I first thought about this, my knee-jerk reaction was to say something superficial, like "It gives us a chance to take ourselves less seriously," or "It gives us the freedom to 'stick it to the Man.'" Both would have been accurate, but not valid across the entire scope of what Discordia offers.

After taking a step back, I asked myself a different question: Why was Discordia ever relevant?

I think, for me, Discordia becomes relevant because it offers a chance to explore my true potential without the limitations of other "tools." It breaks barriers in the mind because, unlike other "models" and "systems" that GIVE you something to believe, Discordia TAKES AWAY things that you might have once held true. With the Discordian outlook, people are encouraged to evaluate their various life systems - their physical body, their beliefs, their family structures, their jobs, their birth, their death, their fear, their sorrow, and all manner of different things that affect them - in a way that appreciates the importance of those systems, while simultaneously recognizing their lack of sovereignty over us. By "taking ourselves less seriously," as I mentioned before, we realize that no one idea and no one system dictates who we are, or how we should live our lives. By realizing that the opinions of others, the events that happen in our day to day and, yes, even our own wants and desires are all just a small part of the tapestry that holds together the tenuous entity known as "ourselves," we become aware that we are and can be more than what others believe us to be, and more than what we believe ourselves to be.

This is both liberating and immensely terrifying, because when we lose the comfort of being able to label ourselves according to the thoughts of others (or even the thoughts of our own self), we are left with just us. Skin, bones and squishy bits, coalescing for who-knows-what-purpose.

Every day since I started walking with Discordia (sorry for the cheesy imagery, but it would seem an incorrect statement to say "following Discordia" or "using Discordia"), I have lost something that I once had to hold me and tell me who I was. I've lost the certainty of love, I've touched the jaded edges of intellectual doubt, and I've found only aimlessness in the search for Purpose. Some mornings I wake up and realize that I don't believe in God anymore, and that I don't believe the promises of Utopia, and that I don't believe any of the other cuddly stuff that makes us feel really warm and fuzzy as children. Then I ask myself, "Why get up today? Will it be just out of habit?"

It all really scares the shit out of me.

But I sit there and wait for a reason to get out of bed that has nothing to do with habit or any of the other things that I've been told/pressured/enticed to believe. And I always find it, even though I'm at a loss to tell what it is. I guess that's Discordia, to me.

When I was just a wee sprout, my grandpa told me that, "When you take away all a man's got, all that he's earned, all that he thinks, and all that he believes . . . then you'll see a Real Man."

Discordia is relevant because it's a game for a Real Man.
Everything I wish for myself, I wish for you also.

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #202 on: October 24, 2008, 04:50:55 pm »
:mittens:


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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #203 on: October 24, 2008, 05:12:40 pm »
Gramps was wise.


He must have had a beard.

Manta Obscura

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #204 on: October 24, 2008, 05:16:09 pm »
Gramps was wise.


He must have had a beard.

No, actually; that was his one flaw. He did look a lot like an elderly Ward Cleaver, though, so his lack of facial hair can be forgiven.
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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #205 on: October 24, 2008, 05:41:12 pm »
:mittens: Manta. That was a fantastic post, truly. I liked it very much. It hit on a lot of things I believe myself, I think. I still need to get in here and tackle the question myself. No time right now, but maybe perhaps this weekend. Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.
People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost.

Let him that would move the world, first move himself. -Socrates

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #206 on: October 24, 2008, 05:48:11 pm »
Remember that the question is asking about why Discordia is more relevant NOW than it's ever been before.


Those spags Mal and Omar had some good thoughts, but they couldn't have known what the world would look like 50 years later. What's going on in this decade that makes Discordia the right tool for the right job?

I feel that Discordia is more useful in 2008 than it was in the 60s.



A lot of the revelations of Illuminatus seem kind of dated to us now. White guys sleeping with black chicks. Hippies and Cops coming to understand each other. The characters in that book were living in different era of civil rights and protest. Today, many of those battles are over, and we have trouble seeing those conflicts as revolutionary. But the same kind of energy that Wilson applied to those issues, we can apply to modern ones. So what's up with that?

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #207 on: October 24, 2008, 06:17:08 pm »
Remember that the question is asking about why Discordia is more relevant NOW than it's ever been before.


Those spags Mal and Omar had some good thoughts, but they couldn't have known what the world would look like 50 years later. What's going on in this decade that makes Discordia the right tool for the right job?

I feel that Discordia is more useful in 2008 than it was in the 60s.



A lot of the revelations of Illuminatus seem kind of dated to us now. White guys sleeping with black chicks. Hippies and Cops coming to understand each other. The characters in that book were living in different era of civil rights and protest. Today, many of those battles are over, and we have trouble seeing those conflicts as revolutionary. But the same kind of energy that Wilson applied to those issues, we can apply to modern ones. So what's up with that?

I understand what you're getting at, Cram, but I question some of the basic assumptions of the differences you're setting between our 50 year timespan.

Discordia is incredibly relevant today, where we're bombarded with millions of streams of data each day. The Discordian "ethic" allows us to maneuver the tricky web of information glut to arrive at conclusions that transcend the binary "this or that" approach of what is given to us. It allows us to "think for ourselves."

Rewind to Hill and Thornley's time. They had much fewer streams of information, but the information that was presented to them was insistent in a way that is different from today. Whereas today ideas/opinions spread on a more viral scale, back then it was more of a "explosive" method of transmission. A governmental edict, for example, was issued and the effect rippled, without as much feedback from the receivers.

The only big difference that I see between our two times - other than the obvious difference in issues that we face - is how we are able to voice our response to those issues. Back then the people who had the power to communicate on a "big scale" were governments, media outlets and people with access to media outlet resources. Today anyone who has access to computers or any of the other host of communicative devices can issue feedback and response with no problem.

Back then people wrangled with interracial couple issues; today we wrangle with gay couple issues. Back then the civil rights of African Americans were examined; today the civil rights of immigrant groups are examined. Back then the legitimacy of foreign wars was questioned; today, same thing. The Discordians of 50 years ago questioned ideas similar to those we now do; their world was every bit as confusing as ours. Just as we have to try to deal with the dissolution of structures and the advent of new ones, so too did they.

The difference comes in how we are able to look at the structures and say "no." They had Project Eagle; we have the OMGASM Wiki. The tools are different, but the fact of people confronting coercion and mental/physical/emotional enslavement and saying "no" is not.

So, short story long, I don't think that Discordia today is any more "relevant" than being a good fellow to your neighbors is "relevant," because Discordia is (to me, at least) not about confronting any particular issue or type of issue, but is instead about confronting those issues with more inner freedom and less fear.

That's a style that I don't think will ever change with us.
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #208 on: October 24, 2008, 07:06:35 pm »
Remember that the question is asking about why Discordia is more relevant NOW than it's ever been before.


Those spags Mal and Omar had some good thoughts, but they couldn't have known what the world would look like 50 years later. What's going on in this decade that makes Discordia the right tool for the right job?

I feel that Discordia is more useful in 2008 than it was in the 60s.



A lot of the revelations of Illuminatus seem kind of dated to us now. White guys sleeping with black chicks. Hippies and Cops coming to understand each other. The characters in that book were living in different era of civil rights and protest. Today, many of those battles are over, and we have trouble seeing those conflicts as revolutionary. But the same kind of energy that Wilson applied to those issues, we can apply to modern ones. So what's up with that?

I am not sure that I agree. The memes, the metaphors, the specific examples are a bit dated, but the philosophy still remains. Mantra brought up several points that appear very similar to ones in the 60's and 70's that RAW, Omar and Mal-2 dealt with.

As a philosophy I don't think its more or less relevant that it was 50 years ago... I think its just as relevant. There may now be easier opportunities for mindfucking than there was in the 60's, due to the Internet and peoples naivety towards Internet Information. But then, maybe mindfucking was easier in the 60's because people in general seem to have been more naive towards everything. Sticking flowers in gun barrels today would likely not even make the evening news.

So while we may have better tools, we may also have more difficult targets. Perhaps this is a arms race between the Hodge and Podge ;-)

I find that a lot of people think the world has changed because of the Internet and some aspects of our culture. Remember Anonymous and their Scientology protests... think about the ideas and attitudes while it was happening... They we gonna change Scientology! They were gonna crush them! They were gonna show everyone...

As it is, they raised some awareness, they provided a couple headlines... but overall, Scientology proceeds unfettered and Anonymous has gone off to do something else. Just like many groups before them that raised awareness about this or that cult.

Most of the problems addressed by Discordian Philosophy seem to be social. In Info Security, one of our major tenants is that you cannot solve social problems with technical solutions. If your user base surfs porn sites, blocking porn sites won't stop them.

If people bury their heads in their own BiP, if they see only one reality tunnel... then all the Internets in the world won't change them. Look at these wingnuts online right now. In the 60's if they said someone didn't have a birth certificate, and the local news paper printed a copy... that would pretty much end the debate. Now, we can provide high quality images and expert testimony and commentary... and people still stare at an iron bar, missing everything on the other side.

That being said, there do seem to be some aspects of Discordian activity which may be more relevant today. Most of these, IMO, are more relevant for the individual Discordian.

For example, learning to 'order things and disorder things' becomes less tricky when you can bury your head 100's of websites in whichever form of 'order/disorder' you like. IF you want to be atheist for awhile, there's plenty of people to talk to and plenty to read, to reformat your reality. Same for Catholic, Wiccan, Thelemic, Buddhist, Republican or Democrat. In the 60's you had to go find the Birchers, go to their meetings and HOPE they accepted you, rather than suspect you as a Pinko Spy. Nowadays, you join their forum, post a rant and BAM, new favorite son.

Either way, its unlikely that the Discordian will open their mind, in person or online...

I don't think these Strange Times make it easier for us to Break Open The Head of the Greyface... but it does provide us with more easy to use tools, when it comes to breaking open our own heads.

How's that?
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Cramulus

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Re: Why is Discordia more relevant than ever in the year 2008?
« Reply #209 on: October 24, 2008, 07:10:58 pm »
I'm 26, so I can't comment on what really went down decades ago. But here's my two or three cents--

The Discordians of 50 years ago questioned ideas similar to those we now do; their world was every bit as confusing as ours. Just as we have to try to deal with the dissolution of structures and the advent of new ones, so too did they.

I would argue that our world is more confusing than it was 50 years ago. simply because the modern world is larger and more saturated with information.

Back then you had four TV stations, now you have hundreds.
Back then the news was presented by newspapers, now there are a zillion places to get it.
Back then there was only one style of jeans, now there are 50.
The past was analog. The present is digital. The future is exponential.

In this part of the Information Age, you can get any information you want in a few quick keystrokes. We're overloaded with information. Learning to distinguish signal from noise is now an important survival skill for the modern jungle.



Quote
The difference comes in how we are able to look at the structures and say "no." They had Project Eagle; we have the OMGASM Wiki. The tools are different, but the fact of people confronting coercion and mental/physical/emotional enslavement and saying "no" is not.

True, we can still learn something from Wilson, Hill, Thornley's attitudes, but their methodology is stale. The tools we have available today (namely the Internet) give us loads more power than we used to have. We can Find The Others, (dis)organize people, and disseminate our ideas at zero cost and barely any effort.

I think it makes us more relevant because we have greater ability to participate in all those feedback loops - between the individual and the media, between the government and the people, etc etc. (I guess by that measure it makes anyone more relevant if they choose to be)

Quote
So, short story long, I don't think that Discordia today is any more "relevant" than being a good fellow to your neighbors is "relevant," because Discordia is (to me, at least) not about confronting any particular issue or type of issue, but is instead about confronting those issues with more inner freedom and less fear.

That's a style that I don't think will ever change with us.

It's the "inner freedom and less fear" part that I'm addressing. Because I think we're living in an era of less inner freedom and more fear. I guess I can't speak with authority there, having never lived through McCarthyism or disco or whatever. And certainly every generation has called their times 'hard'. But I feel like the accelerating world of consumer culture is creating cultural cabbage patch at an alarming rate. People are making their entire identities up of the shit on TV. We're living in a dynamic world populated by static people. If this is not the ideal theater for Discordia to thrive, I don't know what is.