Discordia as a Religion?

[Cramulus]

In writing the forward for the Etc. Discordia, I've been wrestling with the concept of "irreligion". The Etc. Discordia builds on the Principia, rather than striving to replace it. So I wonder, if this was a newcomer's introduction to Discordia, how much of the religious angle is necessary to convey the core meaning of Discordia? The Principia was full of rituals, chants, humorous hierarchy, mythology - it dressed the Discordian idea in priest's robes. But is that necessary? And if so, which parts of it are necessary?

I know this is a conversation we've had before, but I'd like to gain some fresh perspectives on it.

The Principia Discordia has enough religious dressings that you can treat it like a bible. In fact, that's probably how I was originally attracted to Discordia. I was estranged from Christianity, found that Taoism isn't a good fit for being a teenager in our culture, and ended up latching onto this zany irreligion. What PARTS of the Principia are necessary to carry the dialogue to that level? And if we were writing it today, what would those passages say?

[AFK]

The one positive that religion can create is the brotherhood/sisterhood and fellowship aspects.  A belonging to a group of like minded people with similar ideas.

I'm not so sure the actual religious dressings of the Principia are necessary.  But I think somehow tapping into that fellowship ideal of a "religion" is important.  I think people are more motivated when they feel like they belong to something important.  So like the initiation ritual of the Principia was important in that it gave the sense there was a way to join this thing that you were reading about.  That sort of feeling can probably be accomplished without actually writing out a new initiation rite, or maybe it is one that's more of a hazing??  I don't know.

For me, the most powerful pieces of the Principia were the Aspirin commercial episode and Nonsense as Salvation, and neither of those were especially steeped in religious or ritualistic imagery. 

So, those are my not so coherent thoughts for now. 

[Cramulus]

you make a really strong point on the baptism bit, about how it gives you a concrete avenue to initiate yourself into this zany thing. I hadn't considered that.

Nonsense as Salvation has always been a favorite of mine, too. It's probably the closest thing that Discordians have to an actual moral code, right?

(googling "nonsense as salvation" revealed this nifty blog entry)

[Golden Applesauce]

I'd keep the eating a hotdog on friday as initiation and the pope cards for religion, and dump everything else religious (except Eris, of course.)  Let Discordja be a mindset, a worldview, rather than a religous group.  Of course it still needs to make fun of religion, just as it makes fun of every other think devised by apes.

[hooplala]

In writing the forward for the Etc. Discordia, I've been wrestling with the concept of "irreligion". The Etc. Discordia builds on the Principia, rather than striving to replace it. So I wonder, if this was a newcomer's introduction to Discordia, how much of the religious angle is necessary to convey the core meaning of Discordia? The Principia was full of rituals, chants, humorous hierarchy, mythology - it dressed the Discordian idea in priest's robes. But is that necessary? And if so, which parts of it are necessary?

I know this is a conversation we've had before, but I'd like to gain some fresh perspectives on it.

The Principia Discordia has enough religious dressings that you can treat it like a bible. In fact, that's probably how I was originally attracted to Discordia. I was estranged from Christianity, found that Taoism isn't a good fit for being a teenager in our culture, and ended up latching onto this zany irreligion. What PARTS of the Principia are necessary to carry the dialogue to that level? And if we were writing it today, what would those passages say?

Whenever I have brought up the religious angle to newcomers they tend to bristle, but if I mention it as a philosophy it seems to be taken quite well.  I've stopped mentioning it as a religion, except to people at my work so I can continue being "the creepy guy in the joke cult he doesn't know is a joke".

[AFK]

you make a really strong point on the baptism bit, about how it gives you a concrete avenue to initiate yourself into this zany thing. I hadn't considered that.

Nonsense as Salvation has always been a favorite of mine, too. It's probably the closest thing that Discordians have to an actual moral code, right?

(googling "nonsense as salvation" revealed this nifty blog entry)

Absolutely.  In fact, it is the closest thing I have to a religious faith.  Seriously.  There are times, as a father, I catch myself correcting my daughter when I don't need to.  It's sort of a check and balance for me.  "Why am I asking her to stop doing that?  What harm is it actually doing?"  

It's also annoyingly frustrating on another level.  The level that you know in your heart and mind it is true, but you also know in your heart and mind, you'll never see enough people living by it where any meaningful change will occur.  I personally believe this is strongly connected to an irrational fear of death.  And that people need to squeeze blood out of every second of their life.  But that's probably a whole other topic of conversation.  

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I love Discordia-as-religion because it really, really annoys some people who find it "disrespectful" to have a "religion" you don't take seriously, and who can't wrap their heads around the beautiful contradictions of a joke religion that's not a religion or a joke. Telling these people that it's not a serious religion but that I take it seriously usually upsets them.

I don't know. I think I might be in it because it's funny, but I think funny is sacred.

I agree with Cram's view of Eris not as an entity, but as a force. The entity "Eris" is an archetype that represents the force.

[nostalgicBadger]

I'm not particularly a fan of a religious approach to Discordianism in practice. Yes, we are working together on things like GASM, but religion tends to operate on a mob mentality, while the basis for Discordianism is more individualistic. What we really have is a sort of faux community, a weird little paradox of people working in a group to liberate people from groups. Isn't the goal of Discordianism for people to stand on their own? I think what we have is more of a support group than a religion.

[hooplala]

Well, now that nB has come out against the idea of Discordianism as a religion I'm starting to question my stance.  Maybe I DO like it as a religion after all.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"Working together" has nothing to do with whether it's a religion. Individualistic religions are just as valid as conforming ones, they just don't tend to be large or successful.

[AFK]

I'm not particularly a fan of a religious approach to Discordianism in practice. Yes, we are working together on things like GASM, but religion tends to operate on a mob mentality, while the basis for Discordianism is more individualistic. What we really have is a sort of faux community, a weird little paradox of people working in a group to liberate people from groups. Isn't the goal of Discordianism for people to stand on their own? I think what we have is more of a support group than a religion.

Think For Yourself, Schmuck doesn't mean you have to become a hermit.  Humans want to belong to something.  It is their nature.  Black Sheep are still Sheep.  It is important for people to be able to differentiate themselves from a hive mind, but that doesn't mean there isn't merit in hanging out at the hive.  

[Cramulus]

I think we're going to waste a lot of breath if we discuss whether Discordia "is" or "is not" a religion.

I think the critical thing to ask is "how much" and "which parts".



on that note:

not too necessary
The book of Uterus: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/51.php
on prayer: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/19.php
Erisian affirmation: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/33.php

More useful:
POEE Priests: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/33.php
On Occultism: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/68.php

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not into the "is" or "is not" argument, because it can be either, depending on what people feel like. I'm just pointing out that defining religion as organized is a bit silly.

I like the religious trappings, personally.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If the aim is to "build upon" the PD... then it seems to me that the religious aspect of Discordianism would be necessary. If the aim is to create a publication that espouses some of the ideas and philosophy of the PD, without particularly building upon it... then I doubt religion is necessary.

However:

I am of the opinion that human beings tend to have lots of programming inside their heads. Programming from their parents, from their society and from their own experiences. Maybe it makes their reality tunnel or their reality filters or their Black Iron Prison. It might be described by Leary's circuit model, or by another more sane version ... but in the end, in my opinion... in general humans seem to have a lot of built in responses for various scenarios and sensory data.

I think it may be somewhat easier to communicate with humans, particularly with respect to encouraging programmatic changes in their own way of thinking, through the use of metaphor and symbols (see Joe Campbell). It also seems that laughter, humor... particularly irreverent humor, may often be extremely useful in breaking through the defense mechanisms put in place around the 'programs'.

I think the PD has been successful (even if its just a joke... a joke this old that still has n00bs laughing is a damned fine success) specifically because it used irreverent humor to hook the reader, then through the use of symbols... to reprogram the reader.

If I say "Apple" to someone who is into Discordianism, I'd bet that the majority of people would think of the Golden Apple and what it symbolizes. The same for skidoo, 23, fnord or cabbage. If I say "Greyfaced Hunchbrain" it evokes a common set of ideas through a single symbolic reference (for sombunal discordians... just in case one of you spags try to say "NUNHUH, I don't think of that!!")

There probably are several different ways to communicate these ideas... however, religion, particularly religion as based on myth does seem to be a most effective and efficient way to promote symbols as ideas.

[Verbal Mike]

Here's what I wrote while Ratatosk was being a creepy ninja and writing the same stuff in different words:

Actually I think what really makes Discordia-as-religion is the collection of memes presented in PD. The Original Snub, the Pentabarf, the Law of Five, and all the quirky little jokes. Also the visual symbology.

RWHN is right, it's about a feeling of fellowship. And at the basis of this is a shared memeplex, a shared symbology to use when relating to a potential brother-in-faith. This is almost independent from the actual philosophy behind PD (Nonsense as Salvation, Sermon on Love and Ethics), though the two reinforce each other in many ways.

At the end of the day, without the symbology it would be a school of thought, not a religion.