Paradigm shift

[Cain]

Ok, I think he may have been referencing the Wave Structure of Matter hypothesis.

Unfortunately, one of the ideas supporting this hypothesis is based on a very poor interpretation of Heisenberg.

I'm just talking generally.  The only real attempt at suggesting, say, that quantum phenomena have any effect on the brain have been by Roger Penrose, and even then most scientists agree that quantumn systems in the brain, as in most large systems, decohere too quickly to have any effect.

And the brain is a lot smaller than the rest of reality.

[LMNO]

Yeah, I hear you Cain.


Not enough emphasis on Decoherence, most of the time.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

LSD, Shrooms and other hallucinogens can do much more than just 'fuck with your neurons'. My first LSD experience provided me with a visceral experience of the difference between Reality and the thing we experience. It seems to me that LSD can just fuck with your neurons, or it can provide you with a useful experience. In Leary's initial work, I think LSD and other hallucinogens may be quite helpful as tools for psychologists to use and it always makes me a little sad that he went off the deep end rather than continuing his scientific research.

Hallucinogens have been used for thousands of years as a way of modifying experiential reality. However, their experiences have been in a controlled setting, with a shaman leading the  visonary experience. LSD can just trip your balls off at a party, or it can provide you with an experience that may invoke new ideas or different perspectives.

It, in and of itself, can provide no solution for anything. But, to think it can ONLY provide a party trip seems shortsighted or perhaps a bit biased... IMO.

[AFK]

Question from the ignorant:  I've never done anything harder than a bottle of Rolling Rock.

What gives what your experience on a trip any legitimacy?  How is it any different from a freaky dream? 

[BADGE OF HONOR]

i think it has validity in terms of completely changing your stance within reality.  I don't think it provides any eternal truths about the universe.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Question from the ignorant:  I've never done anything harder than a bottle of Rolling Rock.

What gives what your experience on a trip any legitimacy?  How is it any different from a freaky dream? 

What do you mean by legitimacy? I took Acid, I had an experience... what is potentially not legit there?

It's obviously not legitimate in the sense that what I experience in a trip IS exactly what's happening in reality. But, then what we experience is never exactly what's happening in reality. 

I've experienced consciousness change in ritual, in various psychological exercises and with drugs. In each situation, I never assume that what I experienced was "REAL", but I do find that my experiences are often very useful to examine in retrospect.

[LMNO]

Rat, i have a feeling you'd agree that while drugs can alter the way you percieve the world, drugs do not beam 'TEH COZMIK TROOFS' directly into your brain.

[AFK]

Rat,

I guess what I was responding to was this at the end of your previous post:

"But, to think it can ONLY provide a party trip seems shortsighted or perhaps a bit biased... IMO. "

I guess what I was trying to ask is what makes it more than just a party trip? 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Rat, i have a feeling you'd agree that while drugs can alter the way you percieve the world, drugs do not beam 'TEH COZMIK TROOFS' directly into your brain.

I agree... I'm not even sure that there are Cosmic Truths... but if there are, I doubt that consuming a plant, or extract of a plant will make them magically appear in your head.

Rat,

I guess what I was responding to was this at the end of your previous post:

"But, to think it can ONLY provide a party trip seems shortsighted or perhaps a bit biased... IMO. "

I guess what I was trying to ask is what makes it more than just a party trip? 

Well, as nutty as Leary was, back in his sane days he summed it up as "Set, Setting and Dosage". The amount of hallucinogen will drastically affect the sort of trip you have, the setting/location will have a major impact to the sort of trip you have and the set, your mental state, will have the biggest effect of all, at least, in my experiences.

If you are getting ready for a Lords of Acid trip and you take five tabs once you hit the venue... you'll probably have a fun time and see some cool visuals. If you are in a quiet location, and you've been meditating on a particular issue, concept etc and then you take five hits of Acid you may have an entirely different experience.

With the exception of Marijuana, I have found that the mindset and location seems extremely important when playing with anything in the psychedelic category.

I really liked Aldous Huxley's thoughts on Mescaline in 'Doors to Perception'. I found one of his ideas particularly striking. He used a metaphor very similar to the BiP.

We as mammals with a strong survival instinct have developed a neurological system that processes data specific to survival. We see enough detail to understand risks, but not so much detail that we're distracted from the big picture. Huxley likened this to a big wall that we built around the central set of perceptions. In his view, people engaged in somking marijuana and drinking alcohol, because these provided doors in this wall, it allowed their perception to become more relaxed, less on guard. Rather than survival mode, they're in relaxed mode... hallucinogens open bigger doors.

We might say that they could (depending on what we're arguing) show us MORE of whats real... not by revealing secret truths, but by reducing the filtration our brain tends to do to reality. My first shroom trip was in the national forest in SE Ohio, a absolutely beautiful area and one I've spent years in.

However, my experience on shrooms left me with feelings and visuals that I had never before experienced. The green was intensely more green, the simple things like the pattern of bark was intensely interesting and I spent 45 minutes in front of a single tree looking at the details of the bark. In some sense, I was just a tripped out druggie staring at a tree. In another sense, in a personal sense, I was perceiving details that I'd seen 10000 times, but with a different focus, a different appreciation.

In "Heaven and Hell" Huxley argued that Angels and Demons all live in your brain... in "the antipodes" the areas outside the Wall. When people see 'demons' or 'angels' or 'aliens', in Huxley's view, they were perceiving information that the wall usually blocked out. Experiments with hallucinogens seem to support the idea. Traditional shamanic uses of hallucinogens sometimes seem very close to psychotherapy, one modern experiment done with theology students also seems to bear out the idea that hallucinogens seem to magnify  'spiritual' experiences.

I think hallucinogens are fine party drugs... sometimes (depending on the drug, the party etc)... but for me, I much prefer the experience in solitude, or with a small group of friends... I don't know if spiritual is the right term, but I think it might be the only one that I can think of right now.

[East Coast Hustle]

marijuana is not a psychedelic.

damn.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

marijuana is not a psychedelic.

damn.

yes, I know that Marijuana is not specifically a psychedelic. However, it's often included as a "Turn On Tune In" sort of drug, so I mentioned it. Sorry for not being precise.

[hooplala]

THERE IS NOTHING TO YOUR ACID TRIP BESIDES AN ACID TRIP. NO GREATER MEANING, NO "ONENESS WITH THE UNIVERSE", NO REVEALING OF COSMIC TRUTHS.

JUST YOUR SYNAPSES GOING APESHIT AND MAKING YOU FEEL FUNNY AND SEE THINGS.

Why can't it be both?

You can feel oneness with the universe without drugs, so why not with?  And I can find greater meaning in life while watching Pee Wee's Big Adventure, so why not on an acid trip? 

If it changes the way you think (which it certainly does) then it should be able to possibly change the way you think permanently.

I see where your frustration with acid tripping pinealists comes from, but come on...

[East Coast Hustle]

JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU FOUND ONENESS WITH THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T MEAN SHIT.

ACID OR NO ACID.

[hooplala]

JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU FOUND ONENESS WITH THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T MEAN SHIT.

ACID OR NO ACID.

That's not really an argument, so I guess we're done here.  Do dee do...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU FOUND ONENESS WITH THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T MEAN SHIT.

ACID OR NO ACID.

Agreed...

However, experiencing Oneness with the Universe is a far different thing than thinking you 'found it'.

Acid or no Acid.