brains vs. hearts

[Bu🤠ns]

yesterday, the wife and i were talking about certain attitudes about life.  on one side is the thought approach and the other is the feeling approach.

Her example was that her parents were always there for her, but only in a practical sense.  If she were having a problem they were there financially or practically.  However, if she needed some empathy or a shoulder on which to cry there were none.

One of the reasons why we work so well together is because we allow each other to just BE as we need.  There is a deep acceptance between us that seems to slowly grow beyond us toward life in general. 

For a while we were having a rocky period. we'd argue all the time and fight and life was just bleh! not too long ago we had a sort of enlightenment (i know bad word, but i can't think of any other way of describing it).  there was a catylist and we both opened up our hearts to eachother totally.  there we were just existing inside each other's vulernability. we dropped our barriers totally and really felt love for the first time.  later we realized that the more we talked about it the the more it de-emphasized our experience. we were too much in our heads and that our relationship is about our hearts.

The strange thing is that this newer attitude we're developing emphasizes a general dominant attitude among most people and groups we encounter:

That most people seem generally stuck in their heads.

Take religion, for example.  The emphasis on religion is mostly intellectual. The whole evolution vs. creationism thing is a waste of time. (i know i know it's overdone but it illustrates my point perfectly).  a religious attitude is NOT one of trying to [/i]prove[/i] anything.  Being religious is about a subjective personal relationship with existence.  A deeply religious person should never ever have to justify his feelings. after all, the minute you put emotional experience into words it ceases to be emotional...you've turned the personal experience into a cheap imitation of itself...a parody, if you will. 

Religiousness is poetic.  Christian Scientists should stop intllectualizing their endeavors and start writing bad poetry.  because it's an artistic attitude and not a scientific one.  you never have to justify art...it justifies itself.

If so-called religious people were to start FEELING instead of thinking they might actually get a hint of their 'God'. 

yet it remains.  religious intellectuals playing a game of i'm more intellectual than you. talking about how much they love Jesus yet haven't shed a tear since childhood.

hmm. i think i was going into a different direction with this but somehow it ended up here...maybe i'll post a different ending later.

[Golden Applesauce]

I think that there needs to be a balance between thinking and feeling.  I wouldn't say that most people think to much instead of feeling (from my perspective it seems there are more over-feelers than over-thinkers), but I would agree that a lot (if not most) people are too far one way or the other.  At the very least, people who are predominantly thinkers should be aware of feelings and how the 'feeling' worldview works.

A while back I made a thread asking people about their Meyers-Briggs type index, which has a classification for 'thinker' versus 'feeler.'  I noticed that a disproportionate number of people here were leaning towards the 'thinker' side.

[Kai]

I think that there needs to be a balance between thinking and feeling.  I wouldn't say that most people think to much instead of feeling (from my perspective it seems there are more over-feelers than over-thinkers), but I would agree that a lot (if not most) people are too far one way or the other.  At the very least, people who are predominantly thinkers should be aware of feelings and how the 'feeling' worldview works.

A while back I made a thread asking people about their Meyers-Briggs type index, which has a classification for 'thinker' versus 'feeler.'  I noticed that a disproportionate number of people here were leaning towards the 'thinker' side.

I think there needs to be a balance between thinking and feeling, or cognition and intuition, if you will. I also think there needs to be an understanding of when one or the other is appropriate, or more importantly, when one is /inappropriate/.

[Bu🤠ns]

I think that there needs to be a balance between thinking and feeling.  I wouldn't say that most people think to much instead of feeling (from my perspective it seems there are more over-feelers than over-thinkers), but I would agree that a lot (if not most) people are too far one way or the other.  At the very least, people who are predominantly thinkers should be aware of feelings and how the 'feeling' worldview works.

A while back I made a thread asking people about their Meyers-Briggs type index, which has a classification for 'thinker' versus 'feeler.'  I noticed that a disproportionate number of people here were leaning towards the 'thinker' side.

i'm not sure if it's really a question of balance, but more of knowing when to apply which.  i personally don't like to classify people into types.  i can see its usefullness, but i think the bigger picture comes when knowing how to respond.  and maybe feeling isn't quite the word i should be using.  maybe spontaneousness is a better choice. 

spontaneousness and religiousness i feel go together. im also not downplaying the virtues of science and they're just as important. i guess lately, i'm just not down with the whole "progress" kick. 

[Kai]

I think that there needs to be a balance between thinking and feeling.  I wouldn't say that most people think to much instead of feeling (from my perspective it seems there are more over-feelers than over-thinkers), but I would agree that a lot (if not most) people are too far one way or the other.  At the very least, people who are predominantly thinkers should be aware of feelings and how the 'feeling' worldview works.

A while back I made a thread asking people about their Meyers-Briggs type index, which has a classification for 'thinker' versus 'feeler.'  I noticed that a disproportionate number of people here were leaning towards the 'thinker' side.

i'm not sure if it's really a question of balance, but more of knowing when to apply which.  i personally don't like to classify people into types.  i can see its usefullness, but i think the bigger picture comes when knowing how to respond.  and maybe feeling isn't quite the word i should be using.  maybe spontaneousness is a better choice. 

spontaneousness and religiousness i feel go together. im also not downplaying the virtues of science and they're just as important. i guess lately, i'm just not down with the whole "progress" kick. 

*shrug* adding to observations is progressive. Don't be so hard on yourself, it was good. 

[Bu🤠ns]

it just seems everyone is so hopped up on the progress thing...everything has to be new and innovative.  since i've been taking time to feel more than think i've just lost my momentum to be a part of that.  i'm really just trying to refine my terms and thanks

[LMNO]

Reminds me of the Fripp vs Eno paradigm of enlightenment.

Robert Fripp has studied music theory and technique for decades, always striving to learn more, make new connections, think it through, and he's come out the other side; his music got seriously weird, because his knowledge of the rules is encyclopedic.

Brian Eno deliberately ignored music theory and technique, and approached everything as if there was no precedent.  His music got serioulsy weird, because he did not limit himself to the rules.

In each case, they found freedom in music; one though effeort of thought, and one through effort of feeling.

You can make similar comparisons with John Coltrane and Jandek, if you choose.

In more "religious" language, you have the Asian Monks who point at shit, indicating that experience cannot be analyzed or thought about without ruining the experience, and the Jewish Kabbalists who overload their thought processes with arcane connections between things.

It all depends on what works best for you.

[Darth Cupcake]

it just seems everyone is so hopped up on the progress thing...everything has to be new and innovative.  since i've been taking time to feel more than think i've just lost my momentum to be a part of that.  i'm really just trying to refine my terms and thanks

I feel that way sometimes. I get amazingly overly daunted with trying to write or paint or anything because I go in knowing that there is no way I can possibly be more innovative or creative than those who have come before me. On the off chance that there's, I dunno, a finite number of ways to do something out there, a hell of a lot have already been done, so the chances that I will be the one to come up with the next brilliant revelation is slim to none. I don't know that that's necessarily what you're getting after, but, you know, there it is.

I liked the gist of your original bit, too, though I agree with statements that it needs to be a balance. Some things are better thought about than felt (for example, if my car suddenly stops running, I'd appreciate it if my mechanic would think about the problem rather than communing with my car and trying to FEEL what's wrong ) but sometimes it's good to just give the emotions free rein. Humans are messy, moronic, bulls-in-china-shops when it comes to our feelings, and whether we want to concede to it or not, they almost always influence us, and are often the source of the majority of our programming/decisions. I think a lot of us could get a lot further in life if we could accept that and then try to work within that framework.

Did that make ANY sense?

[LMNO]

I feel that way sometimes. I get amazingly overly daunted with trying to write or paint or anything because I go in knowing that there is no way I can possibly be more innovative or creative than those who have come before me. On the off chance that there's, I dunno, a finite number of ways to do something out there, a hell of a lot have already been done, so the chances that I will be the one to come up with the next brilliant revelation is slim to none. I don't know that that's necessarily what you're getting after, but, you know, there it is.

I'm not sure if that's really it, though.

I know for a fact that my music will never be considered genre-changing works of genius.


However, I also know that if I don't record it/play it/get it out of my head, I have to drink myself to sleep.

In my experience, you don't create to "do better than"... You create because you literally have to.

[AFK]

I feel that way sometimes. I get amazingly overly daunted with trying to write or paint or anything because I go in knowing that there is no way I can possibly be more innovative or creative than those who have come before me. On the off chance that there's, I dunno, a finite number of ways to do something out there, a hell of a lot have already been done, so the chances that I will be the one to come up with the next brilliant revelation is slim to none. I don't know that that's necessarily what you're getting after, but, you know, there it is.

I'm not sure if that's really it, though.

I know for a fact that my music will never be considered genre-changing works of genius.


However, I also know that if I don't record it/play it/get it out of my head, I have to drink myself to sleep.

In my experience, you don't create to "do better than"... You create because you literally have to.

Yep, this is me too.  I am hardly a gifted and talented musician.  I know some theory that I learned in grade school and high school.  But when I joined an Improv band in college it awoke this thing inside.  Playing music on the spot with no rehearsing or planning out, connected my desire to play music with my desire to express stuff that was inside.  I think learning to read sheet music is a good thing, but I think it was learning how to play outside of those bars on paper, to play the notes and sounds that were swimming inside of my head, that made me a "better" musician, in terms of emoting through the music.  Yeah, I've been there when you have a riff or a line that just won't go away.  You've gotta play it, record it, get it out.  I think this is the closest thing I have to an actual religion or spirituality. 

[Bu🤠ns]

Reminds me of the Fripp vs Eno paradigm of enlightenment.

Robert Fripp has studied music theory and technique for decades, always striving to learn more, make new connections, think it through, and he's come out the other side; his music got seriously weird, because his knowledge of the rules is encyclopedic.

Brian Eno deliberately ignored music theory and technique, and approached everything as if there was no precedent.  His music got serioulsy weird, because he did not limit himself to the rules.

In each case, they found freedom in music; one though effeort of thought, and one through effort of feeling.

You can make similar comparisons with John Coltrane and Jandek, if you choose.

In more "religious" language, you have the Asian Monks who point at shit, indicating that experience cannot be analyzed or thought about without ruining the experience, and the Jewish Kabbalists who overload their thought processes with arcane connections between things.

It all depends on what works best for you.

this is a good point.  in terms of art, you make a great point...and it seems that through either route both approaches would come to a merger into something else...spontanaeity perhaps?  or maybe simple, unbound expression?  heh, at this point i almost don't even want to give it a name.  maybe just 'art' will do.  i know that when i sit to sketch and want something to be percise i get so caught up in making it a certain way it comes out very rigid and awful.  i used to do everything in graphite.  but when i had a teacher show me some charcoal techniques i found that the medium lent itself to a more flowing method.  i was no longer bound by those percise pencil marks and now had more fluidity, more expression.

i think though, in terms of relationships, things might be more thought-sided and could benefit more from a little feeling.  just my personal experience talking here.  pretty much most of the time someone would come to me just wanting to talk about a difficult relationship it usually stems from setting up so many thought structures about how it should be instead of just allowing it to flow.   that is basicly the root problem and all the details seem to stem from that.  but at the same time you can't really say that to someone because those issue details still seem important to them. 

[Bu🤠ns]

it just seems everyone is so hopped up on the progress thing...everything has to be new and innovative.  since i've been taking time to feel more than think i've just lost my momentum to be a part of that.  i'm really just trying to refine my terms and thanks

I feel that way sometimes. I get amazingly overly daunted with trying to write or paint or anything because I go in knowing that there is no way I can possibly be more innovative or creative than those who have come before me. On the off chance that there's, I dunno, a finite number of ways to do something out there, a hell of a lot have already been done, so the chances that I will be the one to come up with the next brilliant revelation is slim to none. I don't know that that's necessarily what you're getting after, but, you know, there it is.

I liked the gist of your original bit, too, though I agree with statements that it needs to be a balance. Some things are better thought about than felt (for example, if my car suddenly stops running, I'd appreciate it if my mechanic would think about the problem rather than communing with my car and trying to FEEL what's wrong ) but sometimes it's good to just give the emotions free rein. Humans are messy, moronic, bulls-in-china-shops when it comes to our feelings, and whether we want to concede to it or not, they almost always influence us, and are often the source of the majority of our programming/decisions. I think a lot of us could get a lot further in life if we could accept that and then try to work within that framework.

Did that make ANY sense?

i think the bit about the charcoal i said above works for this post too.  as far as the second part goes how about this:  when you first learn to do soemthing technical its very akward...like riding a bike or driving a manual. then more and more it becomes a part of your nature.  you stop thinking about it.  i have probably intermediate knowledge of computers and can troubleshoot most of the issues that happens to mine. although if someone asked me HOW i did it, i probably couldn't tell them (probably in the same way brian eno probably couldn't tell you how his music was constructed theoretically).  i just begin and somehow i feel my way through it.  i'd imagine that for a mechanic who had done it for years, she probably wouldn't even need to *think* about how to fix your car...she probably just does it.  but if a newer mechanic were to look at your car, i'd hope to hell he thinks his way through it.   

[Bu🤠ns]

I feel that way sometimes. I get amazingly overly daunted with trying to write or paint or anything because I go in knowing that there is no way I can possibly be more innovative or creative than those who have come before me. On the off chance that there's, I dunno, a finite number of ways to do something out there, a hell of a lot have already been done, so the chances that I will be the one to come up with the next brilliant revelation is slim to none. I don't know that that's necessarily what you're getting after, but, you know, there it is.

I'm not sure if that's really it, though.

I know for a fact that my music will never be considered genre-changing works of genius.


However, I also know that if I don't record it/play it/get it out of my head, I have to drink myself to sleep.

In my experience, you don't create to "do better than"... You create because you literally have to.

Yep, this is me too.  I am hardly a gifted and talented musician.  I know some theory that I learned in grade school and high school.  But when I joined an Improv band in college it awoke this thing inside.  Playing music on the spot with no rehearsing or planning out, connected my desire to play music with my desire to express stuff that was inside.  I think learning to read sheet music is a good thing, but I think it was learning how to play outside of those bars on paper, to play the notes and sounds that were swimming inside of my head, that made me a "better" musician, in terms of emoting through the music.  Yeah, I've been there when you have a riff or a line that just won't go away.  You've gotta play it, record it, get it out.  I think this is the closest thing I have to an actual religion or spirituality. 

yeah when i learn a new song and i get the basic riff down the minute i stop and try to play it i screw it up. 

[Darth Cupcake]

I feel that way sometimes. I get amazingly overly daunted with trying to write or paint or anything because I go in knowing that there is no way I can possibly be more innovative or creative than those who have come before me. On the off chance that there's, I dunno, a finite number of ways to do something out there, a hell of a lot have already been done, so the chances that I will be the one to come up with the next brilliant revelation is slim to none. I don't know that that's necessarily what you're getting after, but, you know, there it is.

I'm not sure if that's really it, though.

I know for a fact that my music will never be considered genre-changing works of genius.


However, I also know that if I don't record it/play it/get it out of my head, I have to drink myself to sleep.

In my experience, you don't create to "do better than"... You create because you literally have to.

For me, at least, this actually plays right into the OP.

I try to write and paint, but I can't just run with it--I always end up over thinking it, over analyzing what I want to do, what the value of what I'm trying to do is (my head is seriously a retarded place). I THINK so much about what I want to do that I can't just go ahead and do it, so I end up just sort of sitting in my studio, this little quivering ball of impotence, and then eventually I drink.

What you're talking about is the feeling. What I do is squash my feelings and focus on my thoughts, my messed up ideas of value/worth/merit/etc, and end up letting those thought-based feelings override everything else.

I'm getting pedantic, sorry. But hopefully you get what I am saying there?

[LMNO]

Not to sound like a hippie, but you need to give yourself permission to let go and have fun.

Your Jailor is a son-of-a-bitch.