The Paradoxical Logic of Order

[Honey]

& Love is sometimes just hate with some friction mixed in.

& yeah, this needs much work.   

[Verbal Mike]

These are all the correct motor vehicles!

[Rhys Rhaven]

...... I am completely lost. I am just trying to make the single point, that if you understand why an action occurs, and can predict it, it is no longer chaotic. Chaos I think by definition requires a degree of randomness. http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Achaos It requires unpredictability. Since ever single action follows the laws of cause in effect, there is no such thing as "Chaos." It is simply perceived confusion because you are a lowly being.

The people in charge promoting order do not resort to chaos to enforce it. Because of their level of information about actions happening around them, they simply are using a more complex form of cause and effect.

[Bu🤠ns]

...... I am completely lost. I am just trying to make the single point, that if you understand why an action occurs, and can predict it, it is no longer chaotic. Chaos I think by definition requires a degree of randomness. http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Achaos It requires unpredictability. Since ever single action follows the laws of cause in effect, there is no such thing as "Chaos." It is simply perceived confusion because you are a lowly being.

The people in charge promoting order do not resort to chaos to enforce it. Because of their level of information about actions happening around them, they simply are using a more complex form of cause and effect.

okay you're using different terms than everyone else.  thats screwing up your understanding. 

this really isn't about prediction.  Chaos doesn't "require a degree of randomness."  Chaos IS randomness. PURE randomness.  it's pure undifferentated UNG!   order and disorder are a polarity that play together within your head in attemps to understand that undifferentiated GOO we  refer to as chaos. the problem is that order is generally emphasized when it's actually BOTH that hold equal value. 

you're right -- people in charge do not resort to chaos, they resort to disorder... all they have to resort to is order and disorder.  the point is that the more order they create the more disorder they need in order to enforce it.  because order and disorder are not separate. 

also it might help to reconsider your notions about cause and effect.

what cain said.

[Cainad (dec.)]

...... I am completely lost. I am just trying to make the single point, that if you understand why an action occurs, and can predict it, it is no longer chaotic. Chaos I think by definition requires a degree of randomness. http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Achaos It requires unpredictability. Since ever single action follows the laws of cause in effect, there is no such thing as "Chaos." It is simply perceived confusion because you are a lowly being.

The people in charge promoting order do not resort to chaos to enforce it. Because of their level of information about actions happening around them, they simply are using a more complex form of cause and effect.

okay you're using different terms than everyone else.  thats screwing up your understanding. 

this really isn't about prediction.  Chaos doesn't "require a degree of randomness."  Chaos IS randomness. PURE randomness.  it's pure undifferentated UNG!   order and disorder are a polarity that play together within your head in attemps to understand that undifferentiated GOO we  refer to as chaos. the problem is that order is generally emphasized when it's actually BOTH that hold equal value. 

you're right -- people in charge do not resort to chaos, they resort to disorder... all they have to resort to is order and disorder.  the point is that the more order they create the more disorder they need in order to enforce it.  because order and disorder are not separate. 

also it might help to reconsider your notions about cause and effect.

Burnstoupee bringing the clarity, ITT!

[Golden Applesauce]

I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread is using their own idiosyncratic meanings for words.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that was RR was trying to say that with the proper sets of laws, the laws could be upheld without breaking them.  What I'm getting from other people is that the law-enforcers would have to resort to dishonorable things like lying, subterfuge, terror, etc to maintain order.

The two are not mutually exclusive!  Imagine a society in which the leadership had access to near-perfect surveillance on everybody else, and used it to systematically and preemptively destroy any dangerous new ideas via remote incineration.  They'd probably end up incinerating a good number of small children, well-meaning individuals, party leaders, and peaceful protesters - but they'd be doing it in an orderly fashion.

The crux of this piece is upholding order as a value, and also holding values other than order. (e.g., human decency.)  That's what gets you in trouble.

Isn't everything ordered, just as a matter of perspective? Isn't it just a matter of how high must a being be to see a system as ordered?

That's a philosophical difference between Discordja and other systems - Discordja posits that from high up enough, the universe is a Rorshach blob (only without symmetry.)  Any order or disorder you see is a projection upon chaos.

[LMNO]

Rhys, the diametric opposites we're talking about is Order and Disorder.

Cain posits (rather well) that followers of Order must use Disorder to succeed.

As far a Zero Tolerannce rules go, think of the duplicity it takes to have such things enacted in a democracy where the bill or rights exists.

[Rhys Rhaven]

GA for the win. If you consider order as a value vs other values, of course. You're restricting it to a entirely human world, one of values and morals and ethics and human actions. Paradox, the original post makes sense now. I relent.

Burnstoupee you make no sense. You've simply said the exact same thing as the original poster without defining your terms.

1: Order/Disorder are ways to describe chaos, and apparently are equal.
2: Politicians don't use chaos.
3: Politicians use order/disorder as they cannot user order alone, without equal parts disorder.
4: Thus, associative property, Politicians use Chaos. See #3 for contradiction.
???

Save for the bit about cause and effect in the world outside of the human condition. One thing in my previous post I left out. "that if you understand why an action occurs, and can predict it, it is no longer chaotic." On a macro level. Quantum, arguably the source for all cause in the universe, is truly random. BUT I have a hard time equating that with a world at a lower resolution, where if a baseball is thrown or a capacitor charged, a logical orderly prediction can occur. You may say that of course we can't predict when the ball will catch fire, of the capacitor explode, but actually it is very possible with enough time and equipment. I don't entirely know what I think about this.

[Bu🤠ns]

which terms?  and also, if i said the same thing as the OP, then how do my terms remain undefined?

[Cain]

Chaotic in this sense means not bound by the rule-set the players seek to uphold.

For fucks sake, take your science shit elsewhere.  This is not a scientific argument, scientific analogy does not come into it and further confuses the issue.

[Bu🤠ns]

honestly, rhys, i'm not really intrested in arguing this.  i may have restated the OP because i was attempting to reframe it so it makes sense for you by pointing out that you were confusing the term 'chaos' with 'disorder'. if i'm not making any sense the others have stated it well enough. 

allow me to edit my posts.

[Golden Applesauce]

Rhys, the diametric opposites we're talking about is Order and Disorder.

Cain posits (rather well) that followers of Order must use Disorder to succeed.

As far a Zero Tolerannce rules go, think of the duplicity it takes to have such things enacted in a democracy where the bill or rights exists.

If you remove the democracy bit and the bill of rights,  then you're fine.  No duplicity necessary.

[Golden Applesauce]

GA for the win. If you consider order as a value vs other values, of course. You're restricting it to a entirely human world, one of values and morals and ethics and human actions. Paradox, the original post makes sense now. I relent.

Burnstoupee you make no sense. You've simply said the exact same thing as the original poster without defining your terms.

1: Order/Disorder are ways to describe chaos, and apparently are equal.
2: Politicians don't use chaos.
3: Politicians use order/disorder as they cannot user order alone, without equal parts disorder.
4: Thus, associative property, Politicians use Chaos. See #3 for contradiction.
???

Save for the bit about cause and effect in the world outside of the human condition. One thing in my previous post I left out. "that if you understand why an action occurs, and can predict it, it is no longer chaotic." On a macro level. Quantum, arguably the source for all cause in the universe, is truly random. BUT I have a hard time equating that with a world at a lower resolution, where if a baseball is thrown or a capacitor charged, a logical orderly prediction can occur. You may say that of course we can't predict when the ball will catch fire, of the capacitor explode, but actually it is very possible with enough time and equipment. I don't entirely know what I think about this.

Sorry, a little misunderstanding here.

They're using chaos not in the mathematical or physics sense, but in the mythological sense.  As in, before creation, there was chaos, and then the Norse Cow licked the world into existence.

Discordja posits that the world is still fundamentally in that chaotic state; the only difference is that we now project perceptions of order and disorder onto reality, which 'is' chaos.  Chaos and disorder are totally separate terms.

[Cain]

A problem with your argument. You say that to further Order you need to use Choatic methods to do so. This is false. Zero tolerance policies are an example of order, unreasoning simple strict order. Imagine Zero Tolerance laws implemented by robots. Order implemented by order.

Also, isn't the fundamental nature of the universe such that each and every action has a reaction? Isn't everything ordered, just as a matter of perspective? Isn't it just a matter of how high must a being be to see a system as ordered?

An idea to counteract these issues, could you help define "Chaos" for me? If things are viewed from our perspective, then obviously chaos exists and with humans zero tolerance fails terribly. Your point is valid in the real world, but not in a pure sense.

Rhys

You totally ignored everything I said about tradition, didn't you?  Have you factored ideology into your statements whatsoever (think of Lenin crushing the democratic workers councils in the Soviet Union - the ones which were meant to arise according to Communist theory).  Every ideological system or tradition transcends itself by using methods or undertaking actions which, according to that system, are verboten and run contrary to their beliefs.

Also, my point only needs to be valid in the real world.  I'm not playing with theory here, I'm concerned with how people actually act and what they actually do.  Metaphysics is a crock of shit.

[Cain]

And as for the chaos/disorder thing, I was using the words I felt fit best with the theme of the post.  You can use whichever defintion you find fits the post best, it really makes no difference since I used the word as an aesthetic contrast to tradition and order.