Discordia and Christianity

[AFK]

Okay, I understand now, i think, lol. My last big question is, how do I know if I'm Discordian or not? (very dumb question, but I ask anyways)

Don't ask us.  Ask yourself.  

[Paiyaku]

I still wonder though, how can I express Discordia to others around me? cause disorder?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

They may balance your Hodge, but I tend to try to balance my Hodge myself.

As do I, however, is the balance simply personal, or does the balance expand to involve all humans?

The imposition of Order comes from many sources, sometimes including Discordians that think there IS A RIGHT WAY.

I suppose in my opinion, every man woman and child is a Discordian, either from the House of the Rising Hodge, or the House of the Rising Podge. Those in the house of the Rising Hodge, may be Discordians, or they may be completely unrelated to Discordianism (the kid that created the FSM, Mark Twain, Camus)... same for the house of the Rising Podge (People like Bush, Cheney, maybe some Discordians that think there is THE RIGHT WAY to be Discordian).

So maybe all people that claim the title are Discordian in some sense... but maybe not the sense they were hoping for.

[AFK]

I still wonder though, how can I express Discordia to others around me? cause disorder?

What do you mean by "cause disorder"?  What do you think would be an example of that? 

[hooplala]

They may balance your Hodge, but I tend to try to balance my Hodge myself.

As do I, however, is the balance simply personal, or does the balance expand to involve all humans?

The imposition of Order comes from many sources, sometimes including Discordians that think there IS A RIGHT WAY.

I suppose in my opinion, every man woman and child is a Discordian, either from the House of the Rising Hodge, or the House of the Rising Podge. Those in the house of the Rising Hodge, may be Discordians, or they may be completely unrelated to Discordianism (the kid that created the FSM, Mark Twain, Camus)... same for the house of the Rising Podge (People like Bush, Cheney, maybe some Discordians that think there is THE RIGHT WAY to be Discordian).

So maybe all people that claim the title are Discordian in some sense... but maybe not the sense they were hoping for.

Possibly.  I try not to worry about the enlightenment, or lack thereof, of other people.

[Paiyaku]

Well I am learning more and more, I'll have my understandings down solid soon. Still, causing disorder is one way of expressing discordia?

[Paiyaku]

the apple of discord, using as it is meant to be used.(according to the youtube video)

[hooplala]

Causing disorder is causing disorder.  Expressing Discordianism is expressing discordianism.

[hooplala]

Go google: Enrico Salazar Sacred Bull

[LMNO]

This is both cock, and repost, and was written when I was still being  Pinealistic.




So, now that we have discovered the Illusions of Order and Disorder, we can turn to the next page of the Principia Discordia, 00063, "The Curse of Greyface".

THE CURSE OF GREYFACE AND THE
  INTRODUCTION  OF NEGATIVISM 
      To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder. To accomplish this, one need only accept creative disorder along with, and equal to, creative order, and also willing to reject destructive order as an undesirable equal to destructive disorder.
      The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.

POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable.
      Seek the Sacred Chao - therein you will find the foolishness of all ORDER/DISORDER. They are the same!

Now, while that is very interesting, several of us were thinking a few things:
1. It reeks of hippiedom.
2. Its still dualistic.
3. Some of us like breaking stuff.

So, we thought about it an made a new chart:


So:  Possibilities arise fourfold.  The original pattern remains, Creative Order/Disorder, and Destructive Order/Disorder.  But rather than limiting one's observances to an essentially two dimensional outlook, we may expand upon it.*

Orderly Disorder:  The means and methods of predictable chaos, a false front; often used by cabbages to pass themselves off as wise.  Rather than let the warm bosom of Eris comfort and inspire them to do great things, they force them selves into carefully planned actions which may look Erisian at first glance, but are almost entirely Aneristic.

Orderly Creation:  Architecture, Mathematics, Haiku, Fugues; Creative energies bound by rules, yet yielding great works that bring beauty into the world.  In this light, structure and boundaries are not the enemy, they are merely tools with which to create.

Orderly Destruction:  The triumph of the Aneristic Illusion.  Everything is rules.  No freedom exists, for it is bound by carefully crafted commandments.  The creative spirit has been vanquished, crushed.

Disorderly Order:  The methods used by Ghandi and MLK; Civil Disobedience.  Causing Disorder through non-chaotic action.  The rock in the stream that causes turbulence and eddies.

Disorderly Creation:  Using Eristic means to Create; Cf. Jackson Pollock, John Cage, Free Jazz, etc.

Disorderly Destruction:  Most Natural Disasters.  Many cabbages consider this the only aspect of Chaos. 

Creative Order:  The means and methods to which one brings the Aneristic Illusion into greater perception.  Gruad's revolution occurred only because Gruad was creative enough to communicate them to his fellow Atlanteans.  Also, the PNAC, and most justifications for rescinding personal social freedoms.

Creative Disorder:  A process that engenders another process... Much like the intended results of Operation: Mindfuck-- that is, one creates a clever and specific kind of disorder, whose purpose is to turn neophobes into neophiles.

Creative Destruction:  The answer to the usual objection to the original Creation/Destruction meme, to wit, "you have to destroy in order to create".  In fact, if one moves beyond the merely physical into the conceptual, every major artistic breakthrough has come from breaking/abandoning/destroying the "rules" in a creative way.

Destructive Order:  The rules and paradigms that repress and inhibit Freedom and Creation.  The tools of the Aneristic Illusion.

Destructive Disorder:  Behavior and actions that are harmful; various psychoses and self-destructive habits; temper tantrums.  Many Novice Erisians (and many Elder Erisians as well) often mistake Destructive Disorder as a beneficial thing.

Destructive Creation:  The process of building things that have no purpose but to destroy.  Oppenheimer, creating the Nuclear Bomb; Bioengineering new viruses that can wipe out the planet.  In general, these are poorly directed creative energies.

Which leaves us with 4 spaces left: Orderly Order, Disorderly Disorder, Creative Creation, and Destructive Destruction.  What do they mean?  The fuck if I know.  And there lies the first clue.  They are also the purest forms of these aspects.  That is the second clue.  The other three clues are Hidden.  Regardless, it soon becomes obvious that if one takes the four purest elements and combines them simultaneously into a fifth, Eris is born.  She is all things, all conflicting ideas, all concepts, all aspects.  Hence, the 5-fingered hand of Eris occupies those spaces.

It has been noted by Discordian scholars that opening up the Chart in this way give rise to furthur [sic] observations of Destructive Disorderly Order, and Creative Destructive Disorderly Order, and Orderly Creative Destructive Disorderly Order etc.  I leave this exercise up to the reader, as it's getting late, and I'm almost out of scotch.




*The wise-assed among us would like to remind the reader that ultimately, every single square in this chart should contain the Hand, as this is merely another exercise in Illusion, and these aspects are merely interpretations of that which is Chaos.  Fair enough.  Turn the page.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well I am learning more and more, I'll have my understandings down solid soon. Still, causing disorder is one way of expressing discordia?

Well, it can be a way of expressing ideas that are commonly held by discordian individuals.

I would say that the most useful aspect of Discordianism for me personally, is self-application. That is, seeing where I impose order on the Universe and learning to make the imposition of order or disorder a choice, rather than an automated response. Sometimes order is useful and necessary, but that never makes it True. Sometimes disorder is useful and fun, but that never makes it True.

to quote "Nonsesnse As Salvation" from the PD:

If you can master nonsense as well as you have already learned to master sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity. From that moment of illumination, a man begins to be free regardless of his surroundings. He becomes free to play order games and change them at will. He becomes free to play disorder games just for the hell of it. He becomes free to play neither or both. And as the master of his own games, he plays without fear, and therefore without frustration, and therefore with good will in his soul and love in his being.

[AFK]

"Nonsense as Salvation" I think really puts it in a nice nutshell, and it is one of the more straightforward pieces.  I think perhaps, trying to approach that angle with others might be useful because it might be an angle that is most easily understood. 

If you try to hit them with Turkey Curses and the like, I don't think that will be very productive.  I think the Starbucks Pebble Test is a good ice-breaker.  It's a good starting point to talk about the order and disorder concepts.  When my friend first started to talk to me about Discordianism that was the first thing he did.  He took a piece of paper, drew the 5 dots on it and asked me to connect it in my head and tell him what I saw.  From there we started riffing on the ideas of order and disorder.  The Eristic Illusion and the Aneristic Illusion, and then the ideas of Nonsense as Salvation. 

[Dr Goofy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnjADNWuPvc

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

"Nonsense as Salvation" I think really puts it in a nice nutshell, and it is one of the more straightforward pieces.  I think perhaps, trying to approach that angle with others might be useful because it might be an angle that is most easily understood. 

If you try to hit them with Turkey Curses and the like, I don't think that will be very productive.  I think the Starbucks Pebble Test is a good ice-breaker.  It's a good starting point to talk about the order and disorder concepts.  When my friend first started to talk to me about Discordianism that was the first thing he did.  He took a piece of paper, drew the 5 dots on it and asked me to connect it in my head and tell him what I saw.  From there we started riffing on the ideas of order and disorder.  The Eristic Illusion and the Aneristic Illusion, and then the ideas of Nonsense as Salvation. 

I agree... the PD has multiple types of content, some of it is fit for sharing ideas and concepts with others, some if it is fit for invoking upon other peoples heads, some of it is for invoking upon the head of the reader.

[Golden Applesauce]

(Note that even though I'm pretty sure you're either an incurable idiot or a troll, I'm responding just because I think trying to explain ourselves to an incurable idiot or troll is good for us.)

Well I am learning more and more, I'll have my understandings down solid soon. Still, causing disorder is one way of expressing discordia?

the apple of discord, using as it is meant to be used.(according to the youtube video)

There is no "meant to be" in Discordja.  We generally leave normative statements to other people or to individual "discordians" instead of saddling our "religion" with them.  Causing disorder and strife isn't good in and of itself, but it isn't bad in and of itself either.  The general approach of people on this forum seems to be "Think for yourself whether discorder, strife, and confusion would be a Good Idea in this situation, and then go for it. (or not.)" rather than using prejudice or someone else's judgment to determine your course of action.

ETA: Since you aren't perfect, when you say that your understanding is solid, there will necessarily be flaws.  By making your understanding solid, those flaws will be written in stone, and saddle you for the rest of your life.  Make your understanding fast and loose, adroit and changing as the world changes.