To the undecided voters

[AFK]

I agree that the hypocrite label was a bit much.  I believe encouraging people to be a part of the civic realm of the USA is a noble endeavour and one that is quite worth while.  The more people are engaged the better off the country is.  Because the reality is that many don't have the time and capacity to become lobbyists, advocates, ACLU members, etc.  But, they can write to their Representatives, they can read up and understand the nature of our issues, and they certainly can find a couple of hours, one day a year, to express their stand on those Representatives and Issues.  Do they have to?  Of course not.  But encouraging that, IMO, should not be looked down upon.  I don't feel like Jenne was saying everyone HAS TO vote.  I think she was saying that everyone SHOULD vote.  If you disagree, and feel it is fruitless, so be it.  But I'm not sure calling those of us who want to see more involvement "hypocrites" is really necessary or helpful. 

[Cramulus]

just to be "fair and balanced"--

ITT it's been said that not voting makes you a "screeching idiot" and a "dumbfuck" which I weigh as slightly more insulting than "hypocrite"

Nigel was being a bit callous, but I think she, like Jenne, just got a bit emotional from all the judgement and fingerpointing going on ITT about other people's political choices.

[AFK]

Well, I guess I'm more directly sticking up for Jenne, not that she needs me to or anything.  Specifically because she said the following. 

No it's not, but it should never be applauded when people don't give a shit enough to do so, however.  I don't believe in persecution, but I will not laud them and say, "Oh, that's allright!" or "Cool man, you're so punk rock!" either.

I read her as saying, paraphrasing obviously, "do as you will, but, here is what I believe could be the consequences."  And that's kind of where I am.  And obviously not everyone is going to agree with that sentiment, but I don't think it is hypocritical, just an opinion on what not voting could mean.  But yes, I agree "screeching idiot" and "dumbfuck" are also going too far, as there are certainly those who don't vote based on principled positions.  I don't agree with those positions of course, but at least it is based on some thought-out reasoning as opposed to pure apathy and laziness. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'll just say this because I think I've made my point rather well here already--I guess I care too  much for some in this forum, and that drives them to call me hypocrite (something I probably am, but not in this), which actually pisses me off quite a bit.  I don't think I've called anyone in this thread anything other than lazy.

Hypocrite is a big, mean word and it was meant to be big and mean.

So in that spirit, I'll just say FUCK YUO.

If you don't believe in "civic (NOT PATRIOTIC FUCK OFF) duty", then so be it.  I can't force anyone to vote, but I don't condone not voting.  GA, if you're just trolling, congrats, you pushed a button.  I don't have many of them, but yes, this is one of them.  I admitted freely how close I am to people like my father in prison who will never vote again, my immigrant husband who had to fight for citizenship to do so, and his whole famdamnily who is even now struggling to get citizenship here to do so.

So, ha ha hee he ho ho you pulled one over on Jenne.  Congratufuckinglations.

At the end of it though, it's always a choice, and that's the pure beauty of it, there's no conscription, there's no jailing for not doing so.  Makes me glad to be here, still, and believe me, there's not much about being HERE that makes me glad.

As of now, I'm out of this thread.  Flame away, Nigel--you didn't get constructive with your commentary til I left.  So, I'll leave you do it.

Ooooh, sorry that my posting schedule doesn't match yours! I had stuff to go do and couldn't finish up the point I was trying to make before you had YOUR OWN STUFF TO GO DO.

Seriously, when people trot out the "YOU'RE A BAD AMERICAN IF YOU DON'T VOTE" I do have a problem with it. A big problem. Do you want to be told what you SHOULD do with your Constitutional rights? No, clearly, you don't. It is a shame you took my gun ownership/hypocrisy statement so personally, as it was meant as a general response to everyone who was flipping shit about nonvoters, but if you're going to spout strong opinions about WHAT PEOPLE OUGHT TO DO in public, be prepared for people to disagree just as strongly.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For context:

Also:  If you're undecided by this point, you're a dumbfuck.

OP = outstanding

Also:  lots of whining, copping out fuckheads itt.  Who need to go live somewhere without democracy/ rights to voting for a while to see how the "other half" lives.  Then come back to me and say you know about how much democracy sucks ass.

Jesus.

I'll be the first to admit that the real reason I'm not voting is because I was just to lazy to register.

I just don't buy that that means that I'm a bad citizen somehow, or that my non-voting is somehow damaging to society.  The country got along just fine (or terribly, depending on your point of view) before I was born; why does it suddenly require me to fill out a multiple-choice questionaire about the politicians chosen by political parties?

goddammit...I was JUST starting to think that maybe I was wrong and you actually aren't a fucking waste of life.

ECH,
fool me once...

Not to join a mob against you, but I know you're not as stupid as you sound above.  It's very irresponsible thinking to say that just because you are too lazy to help keep your government honest means you've done just fine ok dandy gee golly willikers.

If every motherfucker felt and did as you do, what do you think would happen?  As it is, 50% already do, and look at the state we're in.

So congratufuckinglations.

You vote because an unused right is one that is likely
to be taken away.  Just because people are stupid, ignorant fucks
doesn't mean you don't vote.  It means you vote more, vote often, and
use that fucking voice for more than just whining about how shitty
things are, so you're gonna sit by and let it all fail all the more.
That doesn't make you fucking informed, it makes you lazy and stupid to
boot.  Rights that go without practice become dormant and subject to
pillage and eventual obliteration.  Rights that are exercised and used
at will become worked for and therefore useful and powerful.

Sure, it's better to educate yourself beforehand.  Sure, it's better to
have a voice in all legislation that gets written, or at least have
information on where that leg came from.  Sure, it's better to know who
holds the purse strings to what legislator who writes said legislation.

But, come on, it's also better to always floss your teeth, kiss your
mother and not kick the dog.  But we all cheat somewhere, and something
that has such a huge apathetic following is NOT going to win out on this
"what you SHOULD do" battle, now, is it?

So let's all put our high-minded ideals aside for a moment and just say:

VOTE MOTHERFUCKER, BEFORE YOU CAN'T ANY LONGER.

I hope all of you militant pro-voting people ARE ALSO
GUN OWNERS, or else there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Basically, to recap:

Roger: "dumbfuck."

Jenne: "whining, copping out fuckheads"

Jenne: "go live somewhere without democracy/ rights"

ECH: "fucking waste of life"

Jenne: "stupid"

Jenne: "irresponsible"

Jenne: "lazy and stupid"

Jenne: "You vote because an unused right is one that is likely
to be taken away."

Nigel: "hypocrisy"

Jenne: "YOU'RE MEAN!" <runs away crying>

[AFK]

I still don't see the gun issue being an indicator of hypocrisy.  Because part of protecting your right to own guns is electing Representatives that support your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.  Also, voting on any state or local initiatives pertaining to gun ownership.  So the issue of voting is woven in with the issue of owning guns. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If someone is going to use the argument that we should vote BECAUSE it is a Constitutional right and to not use it puts us at risk for having it taken away, then I am not sure how they can miss that a similar argument can be made for other Constitutional rights?

I believe that Americans also have the right NOT to vote, or to own guns, for whatever reason they choose, and it doesn't make them "dumbfucks", "fuckheads", "fucking wastes of life", "stupid", "irresponsible", or even necessarily "lazy".

[hooplala]

If someone is going to use the argument that we should vote BECAUSE it is a Constitutional right and to not use it puts us at risk for having it taken away, then I am not sure how they can miss that a similar argument can be made for other Constitutional rights?

I believe that Americans also have the right NOT to vote, or to own guns, for whatever reason they choose, and it doesn't make them "dumbfucks", "fuckheads", "fucking wastes of life", "stupid", "irresponsible", or even necessarily "lazy".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You vote because an unused right is one that is likely
to be taken away.

Yet, apparently calling her on this particular argument by introducing the concept of the potential hypocrisy it contains makes me "mean".   

[AFK]

If someone is going to use the argument that we should vote BECAUSE it is a Constitutional right and to not use it puts us at risk for having it taken away, then I am not sure how they can miss that a similar argument can be made for other Constitutional rights?

I believe that Americans also have the right NOT to vote, or to own guns, for whatever reason they choose, and it doesn't make them "dumbfucks", "fuckheads", "fucking wastes of life", "stupid", "irresponsible", or even necessarily "lazy".

But how can you protect your right to own guns without voting?  I've pointed this out a couple of times so far and you, or others who agree, have yet to address this. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I still don't see the gun issue being an indicator of hypocrisy.  Because part of protecting your right to own guns is electing Representatives that support your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.  Also, voting on any state or local initiatives pertaining to gun ownership.  So the issue of voting is woven in with the issue of owning guns. 

If someone is going to use the argument that we should vote BECAUSE it is a Constitutional right and to not use it puts us at risk for having it taken away, then I am not sure how they can miss that a similar argument can be made for other Constitutional rights?

I believe that Americans also have the right NOT to vote, or to own guns, for whatever reason they choose, and it doesn't make them "dumbfucks", "fuckheads", "fucking wastes of life", "stupid", "irresponsible", or even necessarily "lazy".

But how can you protect your right to own guns without voting?  I've pointed this out a couple of times so far and you, or others who agree, have yet to address this. 

I think you're confusing the argument.

The initial claim is:

"If you don't use X you will lose X"

where X is 'your rights'.

"If you don't use the right to vote, you will lose the right to vote"
is the same argument as:
"If you don't use the right to own a firearm, you will lose the right to own a firearm."

I don't think Nigel is arguing that owning a gun will madjickly make our rights stick... rather she's arguing that the "If you don't use your rights, you will lose your rights" is an inconsistent claim.

Personally, I still haven't seen an example where this has been the case. I would like to see some examples of atrophied rights.

[Payne]

Dunno if I should post my thoughts here or not.

I agree that every American has the right to choose whether or not to vote. It isn't COMPULSORY to do either.

I think that people should have a reason for whatever they choose, though.

You DO vote because you believe that you must have voiced your opinion before you can criticise the politics of whoever got in, you DO vote because you feel that people have died to give you that right and you exercise that right out of respect for that, you DO vote because someone has cajoled and berated you.

You DON'T vote because you believe the system itself is flawed and apathy is a valid way to voice your disinterest in the system, you DON'T vote because there is no candidate at all that appeals to you and you would feel dishonest for voting for someone who doesn't represent you in any way, you DON'T vote because it's cold and wet on polling day and you're feeling lazy.

There are many reasons someone can give for voting or not, and as with many things, there are valid reasons on both sides, and some truly dumbassed reasons on both sides.

I personally feel there are fewer good reasons for refusing to vote, but I admit that there may be some.

I tend not to enquire after who someone has voted for, I tend not to enquire IF someone has voted, I tend not to care what someones reasons are either way.

I do tend to encourage people to go out there and vote though, largely because I personally think the most valid reason for not voting is the "Flawed system/ not personally represented by candidate" argument. The system is not likely to change any time soon, and I personally feel that NO ONE will ever truly represent anyone else, so my idea is that trying to counteract that lies with encouraging people to go out and make some noise, regardless of whether or not it's anything but a random choice of candidate or a fouled vote.

Finally though, I really really try to avoid ideology in these discussions. It usually means that insults and personal attacks are left out of it, and that more than anything, is what I really hate about politics.

[Payne]

A note about whether "Rights" are lost by no exercising them: Freedom isn't taken away, it is seized. Meaning that you seize your own freedom, or "they" seize yours. A piece of paper, or an electronic signal isn't going to change that.

[AFK]

I still don't see the gun issue being an indicator of hypocrisy.  Because part of protecting your right to own guns is electing Representatives that support your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.  Also, voting on any state or local initiatives pertaining to gun ownership.  So the issue of voting is woven in with the issue of owning guns. 

If someone is going to use the argument that we should vote BECAUSE it is a Constitutional right and to not use it puts us at risk for having it taken away, then I am not sure how they can miss that a similar argument can be made for other Constitutional rights?

I believe that Americans also have the right NOT to vote, or to own guns, for whatever reason they choose, and it doesn't make them "dumbfucks", "fuckheads", "fucking wastes of life", "stupid", "irresponsible", or even necessarily "lazy".

But how can you protect your right to own guns without voting?  I've pointed this out a couple of times so far and you, or others who agree, have yet to address this. 

I think you're confusing the argument.

The initial claim is:

"If you don't use X you will lose X"

where X is 'your rights'.

"If you don't use the right to vote, you will lose the right to vote"
is the same argument as:
"If you don't use the right to own a firearm, you will lose the right to own a firearm."

I don't think Nigel is arguing that owning a gun will madjickly make our rights stick... rather she's arguing that the "If you don't use your rights, you will lose your rights" is an inconsistent claim.

Personally, I still haven't seen an example where this has been the case. I would like to see some examples of atrophied rights.

But it doesn't hold up logically.  

Exercising your right to vote means, well, voting.
How does one "use their right to own guns"?  Further, how does one "use their right to own guns to make sure that right doesn't go away"?  It would seem to me, protecting your right to own guns will, by necessity, involve voting on a Representative who supports your interpretation of "the right to own guns" or supporting a measure that supports your interpretation of "the right to own guns".  

In otherwords, voting, by its very nature, is wrapped up in every other right in the Constitution.  Because unless you are going to run for Congress, President, or become a Supreme Court Justice, you have to rely upon how those in power interpret the Constitution.  And so one of the few ways an individual citizen has to protect or push forward their view of the Constitution is to vote for people and measures that support those views.