What do you REALLY believe?

[LMNO]

Magic does work, if you believe in it.

Thats interesting, since science works even if you don't believe in it.

Magic does work, if you believe in it.

Thats interesting, since science works even if you don't believe in it.

No it doesn't.  Technology works, science doesn't "work" even if you do believe in it.  Technology meanwhile works under a pretty wide set of belief systems, but not under all of them, and under ones that contradict the intent of the technology (for instance, this computer is actually housing a demon, that makes it go, and if I interact with the demon it will eat my soul) it doesn't work.  The set of belief systems under which magic works may be a bit more restricted than the ones for technology, but there's also the fact that, for me, a world with fairies, witches, wizards, gods, and goddesses in it is way more fun and exciting than one in which those are either delusions of mine or people who are deluded.

Look, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and presume a singular definition of the work "work" in this case.

I'll even open a door for you, and mention that one of the goals of science is to explain the universe in objective terms, while one of the goals of magic is to explain the universe in subjective terms.



F=ma, whether you want it to or not. 

The fact that angels pull things towards the ground faster and faster depending on the distance is up for debate.

[Triple Zero]

not a polytheist, but a MEGAtheist which means I believe in MORE and BETTER gods than you!

I'm an AwesomeTheist.  It doesn't matter how many gods I believe in, they're all cooler than the ones you do. 

An IndieTheist is someone who worships gods so cool, you haven't even heard of them yet.  And sniffs at you condescendingly when you admit that.

and I'm a Dunotheist. D/N/T.

[Cramulus]

yeah, I'll agree with you that our experience of the universe is ultimately pretty subjective

but I have to draw the line at the notion that belief is the most powerful tool for shaping reality

it's a great tool, yeah,

and I will even agree with you that current scientific models are a Belief System, and that it's been muddled by Too Many Cooks, and one day it will be replaced by something better --

(I mean christ, we used to have Solid Proof that all things were composed of Four Elements... Maybe our grandchildren won't even believe in Atoms.)

-- but I don't think science is the same kind of system as magic. If you cast aside most belief systems, (christianity, animism, pastafarianism et al) you can still basically orient yourself onto reality. In order to disregard science you have to cast aside some pretty basic stuff about reality. Like that we can measure and observe it empirically.


I think it's useful to get out of that materialist headspace now and then -- but once you start living in a world where science is easily and regularly dismissed, you often start to sound like that guy who cannot understand the evidence about the earth being older than 5000 years old. Or the asshat at the party who, late at night, tries to tell everyone about his date with Isis. Or worse - since science (in most parts of the USA) informs consensus reality you start seeing everybody as barbarians, unable to hear the whispers of nature. Or whatever.


so ultimately, more power to ya

but watch out for that barstool  

[The Wizard]

Well put.

[BabylonHoruv]

Magic does work, if you believe in it.

Thats interesting, since science works even if you don't believe in it.

No it doesn't.  Technology works, science doesn't "work" even if you do believe in it.  Technology meanwhile works under a pretty wide set of belief systems, but not under all of them, and under ones that contradict the intent of the technology (for instance, this computer is actually housing a demon, that makes it go, and if I interact with the demon it will eat my soul) it doesn't work.  The set of belief systems under which magic works may be a bit more restricted than the ones for technology, but there's also the fact that, for me, a world with fairies, witches, wizards, gods, and goddesses in it is way more fun and exciting than one in which those are either delusions of mine or people who are deluded.

Look, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and presume a singular definition of the work "work" in this case.

I'll even open a door for you, and mention that one of the goals of science is to explain the universe in objective terms, while one of the goals of magic is to explain the universe in subjective terms.



F=ma, whether you want it to or not. 

The fact that angels pull things towards the ground faster and faster depending on the distance is up for debate.

Science is a very useful explanation of the world.  However that is all that it is.  F=MA only works if it is useful to you for it to work.  Accepting a precept like that as true can lead to all sorts of fun applications, however, if you don't approach it in the right mindset (the scientific method, as well as a certain rigourous approach to your technological development) it doesn't do you any more good than "God doesn't like it when you are a slut"

F=MA is a definition anyways, rather than a law of nature, it defines what force is.  It's not equivalent to Angels pulling you toward the ground, it's more equivalent to "A Nephilim is a half angel half human"

I agree however about the subjective and objective plans as far as science and magic are concerned, and I greatly prefer a subjectively defined universe.  Although I'll take advatnage of all the technology and scientific study that has been done. 



RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

[Iason Ouabache]

 

[Cainad (dec.)]

RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

Actually, I think scientific terms are the last thing anyone is going to think about after they've been clobbered by a bar stool.

It also wouldn't matter whether they believed you to be possessed by a demon or just a violent nerd when they respond by cold cocking you with a beer bottle.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

It might, but you would be incapable of knowing it. So, instead, the blow would be mighty as if thrown by a thousand horny demons.

[BabylonHoruv]

RE: Cram

I would say that science is the basis of consensus reality in our modern society, casting it aside entirely would be as foolish as completely casting aside Catholicism in the middle ages.  dismissing it is never going to be easy, and shouldn't be done regularly, but it can still be very useful, on occasion.  Plus a date with Isis would be awesome.

Wait...

So if I clobber you with a barstool after you've immanentized the eschaton and gotten rid of science as a dominant creator of consensus reality, the force with which it hits you won't equal the mass of the barstool times the acceleration with which I propel it towards your face?

Nope, it'll be equal to the totality of the chi which you have invested into barstool, multiplied by the wooden essence of the barstool itself.

Plus Enki and the guy with the squid vatar said what I meant better than I did.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

THIS.

Discordianism would be a lot more useful if we didn't keep attracting adults that believe in magic and fairies and shit.

[Chairman Risus]

Levitate me one barstool, then we can talk.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

THIS.

Discordianism would be a lot more useful if we didn't keep attracting adults that believe in magic and fairies and shit.

Who are you calling an adult?! 

[Thurnez Isa]

Levitate me one barstool, then we can talk.

only if he chooses to believe you are talking

[BabylonHoruv]

THIS.

Discordianism would be a lot more useful if we didn't keep attracting adults that believe in magic and fairies and shit.

why?

Also, the barstool doesn't argue against magic, I already said I believe in barstools, and the two people clobbered by one in the parable are using scientific discoveries to mentally wank each other into believing the barstool doesn't exist.  A good example of science not working.

Whether you believe in fairies or not, santa claus or not, God or not, quantum physics or not, or whatever, the barstool to your head is going to hurt.  The explanation as to exactly why it hurts the amount that it does, whether that has to do with force mass and acceleration, the chi flow in your nose, or magical pain aliens from the nth dimension is completely irrelevent in that particular instance.

If your beliefs are solid, and Gods, fairies, and magic aren't possibilities I think you are denying yourself all sorts of possibilities.  Sure, I could choose to live in your world, where the experiences I have had are a product of mental derangement on my part, but it looks like way less fun than the world that I live in.  If choosing to live in the world you are going to enjoy most isn't part of being Discordian then I suppose I must be badly misunderstanding it and am apparently doing it wrong.

I'm not saying that believing in a different paradigm solves all my problems, I have problems, but they tend to be ones that are in some way entertaining for me, and the solutions i find to them are also usually entertaining.