Do you believe in a soul?

[Revenant]

I'm not angry or upset. Caps lock is cruise control for cool. I just did it to get your attention. You still haven't given any examples of sound experiments which violate basic physical laws.

Yup, you are absolutely right. I haven't. That does not prove or disprove the possible existence of such experiments. Only we have not heard of them.  It is my biggest problem with science these days is if it was published and a lot of like minded individuals say it is correct, it must be.  Using this same formula, we can any subject with enough people who believe in it as fact.  I'm going to do my best to stay away from such an argument as it can never truly be a discussion.  

My statement has basis in the very points you placed, ie if the energy where to dissipate, it would most likely do so in the form of heat.  We know the body does indeed cool upon death and also releases it bowels, both show a loss of heat.  My point is still valid in that area.

As for the zombie thing, it was pure speculation.  Btw, the human brain does function a lot like a computer and the body like a machine.  We even jump start them when they stop running.

Or I could still be lying.


BTW, if you want to get my attention, a normal post works best.  All caps is most likely to have me classify you as a fanatic and nothing worth the time and effort to converse.

[Kai]

I'm not angry or upset. Caps lock is cruise control for cool. I just did it to get your attention. You still haven't given any examples of sound experiments which violate basic physical laws.

Yup, you are absolutely right. I haven't. That does not prove or disprove the possible existence of such experiments. Only we have not heard of them.  It is my biggest problem with science these days is if it was published and a lot of like minded individuals say it is correct, it must be.  Using this same formula, we can any subject with enough people who believe in it as fact.  I'm going to do my best to stay away from such an argument as it can never truly be a discussion. 

My statement has basis in the very points you placed, ie if the energy where to dissipate, it would most likely do so in the form of heat.  We know the body does indeed cool upon death and also releases it bowels, both show a loss of heat.  My point is still valid in that area.

As for the zombie thing, it was pure speculation.  Btw, the human brain does function a lot like a computer and the body like a machine.  We even jump start them when they stop running.

Or I could still be lying.


BTW, if you want to get my attention, a normal post works best.  All caps is most likely to have me classify you as a fanatic and nothing worth the time and effort to converse.

A) Are you suggesting we do away with peer review? REAL bright ideal there. Also, lets go back to bloodletting and exorcisms!

B) Yes...we've already established that heat is photons within the infrared range, and that it is also very measurable. Are you suggesting heat = soul?

C) No, it doesn't. Come back to me when you have a degree in biology, or at least some biological background under your belt.

[Revenant]

Well then, do you question the validity of your argument?

Yup, I certainly do.  Which is why it ends with "Or I could be lying."  Like everyone else, I do not nor could I ever truly know.  This is speculation.  The question was asked, I gave you my answer.  Not my fault, YOU don't like it.

It certainly isn't your fault. But I'm also free to criticize.

It doesn't mean it is not possible.  It does not make it true or false.  It just is.

That's very zen and all, but is it really applicable to anything useful?

Does it have to be useful?

Only if you're sick of ineffectual mental-masturbation.

That's all it will ever truly be, mental masturbation.  It is why it is called a belief and not knowledge.  We will never truly know until it is experienced.  Until then.....

There are things we can consistently measure. We can build upon those measurements with more measurements.

What you are saying is that the measurements are shit and we should just reside in ignorance of reality.


You're a fucking idiot.

That's not what I said at all.  It is all fine and dandy to base measurements upon measurements, but we must be prepared for the possibility of those measurements being wrong.  If say for instance down the proverbial road we find that 1+1 does not equate to two, then everything we have based on that is now drivel.  We could be wrong. I am at least willing to admit it.  I am monkey. I do not know the entirety of the universe.  What I do know is all of the other monkeys who are talking are in the same boat as I am.  They could be wrong as well.  Then again they might have gotten lucky and be right.  Hooray if that is the case, but I can't count it an an absolute.  I can put some faith into it. I can believe they are right, but deep down it is still only a belief and not a fact.

[Kai]

Well then, do you question the validity of your argument?

Yup, I certainly do.  Which is why it ends with "Or I could be lying."  Like everyone else, I do not nor could I ever truly know.  This is speculation.  The question was asked, I gave you my answer.  Not my fault, YOU don't like it.

It certainly isn't your fault. But I'm also free to criticize.

It doesn't mean it is not possible.  It does not make it true or false.  It just is.

That's very zen and all, but is it really applicable to anything useful?

Does it have to be useful?

Only if you're sick of ineffectual mental-masturbation.

That's all it will ever truly be, mental masturbation.  It is why it is called a belief and not knowledge.  We will never truly know until it is experienced.  Until then.....

There are things we can consistently measure. We can build upon those measurements with more measurements.

What you are saying is that the measurements are shit and we should just reside in ignorance of reality.


You're a fucking idiot.

That's not what I said at all.  It is all fine and dandy to base measurements upon measurements, but we must be prepared for the possibility of those measurements being wrong.  If say for instance down the proverbial road we find that 1+1 does not equate to two, then everything we have based on that is now drivel.  We could be wrong. I am at least willing to admit it.  I am monkey. I do not know the entirety of the universe.  What I do know is all of the other monkeys who are talking are in the same boat as I am.  They could be wrong as well.  Then again they might have gotten lucky and be right.  Hooray if that is the case, but I can't count it an an absolute.  I can put some faith into it. I can believe they are right, but deep down it is still only a belief and not a fact.

....

You really DON'T know anything about the scientific method do you?

I'm not going to take the time to explain it to you either.

[Revenant]

I'm not angry or upset. Caps lock is cruise control for cool. I just did it to get your attention. You still haven't given any examples of sound experiments which violate basic physical laws.

Yup, you are absolutely right. I haven't. That does not prove or disprove the possible existence of such experiments. Only we have not heard of them.  It is my biggest problem with science these days is if it was published and a lot of like minded individuals say it is correct, it must be.  Using this same formula, we can any subject with enough people who believe in it as fact.  I'm going to do my best to stay away from such an argument as it can never truly be a discussion. 

My statement has basis in the very points you placed, ie if the energy where to dissipate, it would most likely do so in the form of heat.  We know the body does indeed cool upon death and also releases it bowels, both show a loss of heat.  My point is still valid in that area.

As for the zombie thing, it was pure speculation.  Btw, the human brain does function a lot like a computer and the body like a machine.  We even jump start them when they stop running.

Or I could still be lying.


BTW, if you want to get my attention, a normal post works best.  All caps is most likely to have me classify you as a fanatic and nothing worth the time and effort to converse.

A) Are you suggesting we do away with peer review? REAL bright ideal there. Also, lets go back to bloodletting and exorcisms!

B) Yes...we've already established that heat is photons within the infrared range, and that it is also very measurable. Are you suggesting heat = soul?

C) No, it doesn't. Come back to me when you have a degree in biology, or at least some biological background under your belt.

No, I never said to get rid of it, just stop taking it as fact and understand we could all be wrong.

I never suggested the heat was a soul.  I am suggesting that the energy dispersed as heat upon the body's death could or might be a soul.

[Revenant]

Well then, do you question the validity of your argument?

Yup, I certainly do.  Which is why it ends with "Or I could be lying."  Like everyone else, I do not nor could I ever truly know.  This is speculation.  The question was asked, I gave you my answer.  Not my fault, YOU don't like it.

It certainly isn't your fault. But I'm also free to criticize.

It doesn't mean it is not possible.  It does not make it true or false.  It just is.

That's very zen and all, but is it really applicable to anything useful?

Does it have to be useful?

Only if you're sick of ineffectual mental-masturbation.

That's all it will ever truly be, mental masturbation.  It is why it is called a belief and not knowledge.  We will never truly know until it is experienced.  Until then.....

There are things we can consistently measure. We can build upon those measurements with more measurements.

What you are saying is that the measurements are shit and we should just reside in ignorance of reality.


You're a fucking idiot.

That's not what I said at all.  It is all fine and dandy to base measurements upon measurements, but we must be prepared for the possibility of those measurements being wrong.  If say for instance down the proverbial road we find that 1+1 does not equate to two, then everything we have based on that is now drivel.  We could be wrong. I am at least willing to admit it.  I am monkey. I do not know the entirety of the universe.  What I do know is all of the other monkeys who are talking are in the same boat as I am.  They could be wrong as well.  Then again they might have gotten lucky and be right.  Hooray if that is the case, but I can't count it an an absolute.  I can put some faith into it. I can believe they are right, but deep down it is still only a belief and not a fact.

....

You really DON'T know anything about the scientific method do you?

I'm not going to take the time to explain it to you either.

I will admit I am a bit rusty, but what I remember most about the whole Scientific method is it starts with a question, then moves to a possible answer to that question.  Once there, experiments are done to determine the possibility of the answer being true or false.  Continue cycle until experiments show a pattern that is consistent with an answer.  Things may have changed down the road, but it is the basic principle of the process.

[Kai]

I'm not angry or upset. Caps lock is cruise control for cool. I just did it to get your attention. You still haven't given any examples of sound experiments which violate basic physical laws.

Yup, you are absolutely right. I haven't. That does not prove or disprove the possible existence of such experiments. Only we have not heard of them.  It is my biggest problem with science these days is if it was published and a lot of like minded individuals say it is correct, it must be.  Using this same formula, we can any subject with enough people who believe in it as fact.  I'm going to do my best to stay away from such an argument as it can never truly be a discussion. 

My statement has basis in the very points you placed, ie if the energy where to dissipate, it would most likely do so in the form of heat.  We know the body does indeed cool upon death and also releases it bowels, both show a loss of heat.  My point is still valid in that area.

As for the zombie thing, it was pure speculation.  Btw, the human brain does function a lot like a computer and the body like a machine.  We even jump start them when they stop running.

Or I could still be lying.


BTW, if you want to get my attention, a normal post works best.  All caps is most likely to have me classify you as a fanatic and nothing worth the time and effort to converse.

A) Are you suggesting we do away with peer review? REAL bright ideal there. Also, lets go back to bloodletting and exorcisms!

B) Yes...we've already established that heat is photons within the infrared range, and that it is also very measurable. Are you suggesting heat = soul?

C) No, it doesn't. Come back to me when you have a degree in biology, or at least some biological background under your belt.

No, I never said to get rid of it, just stop taking it as fact and understand we could all be wrong.

I never suggested the heat was a soul.  I am suggesting that the energy dispersed as heat upon the body's death could or might be a soul.

So....it would follow then that all heat is soul matter? Or are you just completely inconsistent like that?

[Revenant]

I'm not angry or upset. Caps lock is cruise control for cool. I just did it to get your attention. You still haven't given any examples of sound experiments which violate basic physical laws.

Yup, you are absolutely right. I haven't. That does not prove or disprove the possible existence of such experiments. Only we have not heard of them.  It is my biggest problem with science these days is if it was published and a lot of like minded individuals say it is correct, it must be.  Using this same formula, we can any subject with enough people who believe in it as fact.  I'm going to do my best to stay away from such an argument as it can never truly be a discussion. 

My statement has basis in the very points you placed, ie if the energy where to dissipate, it would most likely do so in the form of heat.  We know the body does indeed cool upon death and also releases it bowels, both show a loss of heat.  My point is still valid in that area.

As for the zombie thing, it was pure speculation.  Btw, the human brain does function a lot like a computer and the body like a machine.  We even jump start them when they stop running.

Or I could still be lying.


BTW, if you want to get my attention, a normal post works best.  All caps is most likely to have me classify you as a fanatic and nothing worth the time and effort to converse.

A) Are you suggesting we do away with peer review? REAL bright ideal there. Also, lets go back to bloodletting and exorcisms!

B) Yes...we've already established that heat is photons within the infrared range, and that it is also very measurable. Are you suggesting heat = soul?

C) No, it doesn't. Come back to me when you have a degree in biology, or at least some biological background under your belt.

No, I never said to get rid of it, just stop taking it as fact and understand we could all be wrong.

I never suggested the heat was a soul.  I am suggesting that the energy dispersed as heat upon the body's death could or might be a soul.

So....it would follow then that all heat is soul matter? Or are you just completely inconsistent like that?

Or, maybe the soul moves about as heat like other forms of energy? Or the soul is composed the same energy that is found in everything?  Hmmmm.....these concepts sound familiar.

[Kai]

Well then, do you question the validity of your argument?

Yup, I certainly do.  Which is why it ends with "Or I could be lying."  Like everyone else, I do not nor could I ever truly know.  This is speculation.  The question was asked, I gave you my answer.  Not my fault, YOU don't like it.

It certainly isn't your fault. But I'm also free to criticize.

It doesn't mean it is not possible.  It does not make it true or false.  It just is.

That's very zen and all, but is it really applicable to anything useful?

Does it have to be useful?

Only if you're sick of ineffectual mental-masturbation.

That's all it will ever truly be, mental masturbation.  It is why it is called a belief and not knowledge.  We will never truly know until it is experienced.  Until then.....

There are things we can consistently measure. We can build upon those measurements with more measurements.

What you are saying is that the measurements are shit and we should just reside in ignorance of reality.


You're a fucking idiot.

That's not what I said at all.  It is all fine and dandy to base measurements upon measurements, but we must be prepared for the possibility of those measurements being wrong.  If say for instance down the proverbial road we find that 1+1 does not equate to two, then everything we have based on that is now drivel.  We could be wrong. I am at least willing to admit it.  I am monkey. I do not know the entirety of the universe.  What I do know is all of the other monkeys who are talking are in the same boat as I am.  They could be wrong as well.  Then again they might have gotten lucky and be right.  Hooray if that is the case, but I can't count it an an absolute.  I can put some faith into it. I can believe they are right, but deep down it is still only a belief and not a fact.

....

You really DON'T know anything about the scientific method do you?

I'm not going to take the time to explain it to you either.

I will admit I am a bit rusty, but what I remember most about the whole Scientific method is it starts with a question, then moves to a possible answer to that question.  Once there, experiments are done to determine the possibility of the answer being true or false.  Continue cycle until experiments show a pattern that is consistent with an answer.  Things may have changed down the road, but it is the basic principle of the process.

1) Have some sort of measurement, some sort of basal information, or from earlier experiments. The universe supplies more than enough of this.

2) Ask a question about said information. If you can't come up with any questions then you don't have enough curiosity to do scientific work.

3) Determine possible answers to said question. Formulate a hypothesis (which is not a guess, btw) based on previous data as an answer to said question.

4) Formulate and run an experiment to test said hypothesis.

5) Examine the results of the experiment, and determine whether the hypothesis is supported, or rejected.

repetio ad infinitum


If it doesn't follow the scientific method in some form, meaning, if it doesn't use physical data to form and test hypotheses through experiments that generate meaningful results which either support or reject said hypotheses, its not science.

And its not very realistic or useful either.

[Kai]

I'm not angry or upset. Caps lock is cruise control for cool. I just did it to get your attention. You still haven't given any examples of sound experiments which violate basic physical laws.

Yup, you are absolutely right. I haven't. That does not prove or disprove the possible existence of such experiments. Only we have not heard of them.  It is my biggest problem with science these days is if it was published and a lot of like minded individuals say it is correct, it must be.  Using this same formula, we can any subject with enough people who believe in it as fact.  I'm going to do my best to stay away from such an argument as it can never truly be a discussion. 

My statement has basis in the very points you placed, ie if the energy where to dissipate, it would most likely do so in the form of heat.  We know the body does indeed cool upon death and also releases it bowels, both show a loss of heat.  My point is still valid in that area.

As for the zombie thing, it was pure speculation.  Btw, the human brain does function a lot like a computer and the body like a machine.  We even jump start them when they stop running.

Or I could still be lying.


BTW, if you want to get my attention, a normal post works best.  All caps is most likely to have me classify you as a fanatic and nothing worth the time and effort to converse.

A) Are you suggesting we do away with peer review? REAL bright ideal there. Also, lets go back to bloodletting and exorcisms!

B) Yes...we've already established that heat is photons within the infrared range, and that it is also very measurable. Are you suggesting heat = soul?

C) No, it doesn't. Come back to me when you have a degree in biology, or at least some biological background under your belt.

No, I never said to get rid of it, just stop taking it as fact and understand we could all be wrong.

I never suggested the heat was a soul.  I am suggesting that the energy dispersed as heat upon the body's death could or might be a soul.

So....it would follow then that all heat is soul matter? Or are you just completely inconsistent like that?

Or, maybe the soul moves about as heat like other forms of energy? Or the soul is composed the same energy that is found in everything?  Hmmmm.....these concepts sound familiar.

Since you can't test it, measure it, quantify it, or even qualify it by measuring its interaction with something else, the whole concept is meaningless and useless and masturbatory.

[Revenant]

Well then, do you question the validity of your argument?

Yup, I certainly do.  Which is why it ends with "Or I could be lying."  Like everyone else, I do not nor could I ever truly know.  This is speculation.  The question was asked, I gave you my answer.  Not my fault, YOU don't like it.

It certainly isn't your fault. But I'm also free to criticize.

It doesn't mean it is not possible.  It does not make it true or false.  It just is.

That's very zen and all, but is it really applicable to anything useful?

Does it have to be useful?

Only if you're sick of ineffectual mental-masturbation.

That's all it will ever truly be, mental masturbation.  It is why it is called a belief and not knowledge.  We will never truly know until it is experienced.  Until then.....

There are things we can consistently measure. We can build upon those measurements with more measurements.

What you are saying is that the measurements are shit and we should just reside in ignorance of reality.


You're a fucking idiot.

That's not what I said at all.  It is all fine and dandy to base measurements upon measurements, but we must be prepared for the possibility of those measurements being wrong.  If say for instance down the proverbial road we find that 1+1 does not equate to two, then everything we have based on that is now drivel.  We could be wrong. I am at least willing to admit it.  I am monkey. I do not know the entirety of the universe.  What I do know is all of the other monkeys who are talking are in the same boat as I am.  They could be wrong as well.  Then again they might have gotten lucky and be right.  Hooray if that is the case, but I can't count it an an absolute.  I can put some faith into it. I can believe they are right, but deep down it is still only a belief and not a fact.

....

You really DON'T know anything about the scientific method do you?

I'm not going to take the time to explain it to you either.

I will admit I am a bit rusty, but what I remember most about the whole Scientific method is it starts with a question, then moves to a possible answer to that question.  Once there, experiments are done to determine the possibility of the answer being true or false.  Continue cycle until experiments show a pattern that is consistent with an answer.  Things may have changed down the road, but it is the basic principle of the process.

1) Have some sort of measurement, some sort of basal information, or from earlier experiments. The universe supplies more than enough of this.

2) Ask a question about said information. If you can't come up with any questions then you don't have enough curiosity to do scientific work.

3) Determine possible answers to said question. Formulate a hypothesis (which is not a guess, btw) based on previous data as an answer to said question.

4) Formulate and run an experiment to test said hypothesis.

5) Examine the results of the experiment, and determine whether the hypothesis is supported, or rejected.

repetio ad infinitum


If it doesn't follow the scientific method in some form, meaning, if it doesn't use physical data to form and test hypotheses through experiments that generate meaningful results which either support or reject said hypotheses, its not science.

And its not very realistic or useful either.

So if it isn't science it is useless. What a bleak existence you must live.

[Revenant]

Since you can't test it, measure it, quantify it, or even qualify it by measuring its interaction with something else, the whole concept is meaningless and useless and masturbatory.

And I tell you even if you can, it is meaningless and useless and masturbatory.

[Kai]

So if it isn't science it is useless. What a bleak existence you must live.

If its not science, I'm not going to pass it off as science.

Also,  at obvious misdirect.

[Revenant]

So if it isn't science it is useless. What a bleak existence you must live.

If its not science, I'm not going to pass it off as science.

Also,  at obvious misdirect.

Neither have I.  I merely proposed a theory.  We know something drives the human body, some of us choose to call it a 'soul'. Whether it is something divine or mundane matters not. The energy exist upon death it leaves the body.  Where it goes is pure fluff.  The energy exist, it can be measured and calculated. We know it is there as the body cannot move without energy.  It really doesn't matter what its origins may be, it is there.  Something causes the brain to think, the heart to pump, the lungs to breathe, and the eyes to see.  Something causes the hate, the love, the confusion, and the curiosity.  Sure it could be chemicals, but what causes those chemicals.  IT ultimately leads to the energy which drives the human body.  Why can't that energy be the soul?  It is ultimately, what drives us all.

[Sister_Gothique]

So if it isn't science it is useless. What a bleak existence you must live.

If its not science, I'm not going to pass it off as science.

Also,  at obvious misdirect.

Neither have I.  I merely proposed a theory.  We know something drives the human body, some of us choose to call it a 'soul'. Whether it is something divine or mundane matters not. The energy exist upon death it leaves the body.  Where it goes is pure fluff.  The energy exist, it can be measured and calculated. We know it is there as the body cannot move without energy.  It really doesn't matter what its origins may be, it is there.  Something causes the brain to think, the heart to pump, the lungs to breathe, and the eyes to see.  Something causes the hate, the love, the confusion, and the curiosity.  Sure it could be chemicals, but what causes those chemicals.  IT ultimately leads to the energy which drives the human body.  Why can't that energy be the soul?  It is ultimately, what drives us all.

Very well put...I like lurking on this thread...'tis interesting.