Poll

Who Wins?

Demi-Lich
21 (67.7%)
Tarrasque
10 (32.3%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: WARNING: D&D TALK  (Read 87252 times)

PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #150 on: October 06, 2009, 01:04:30 am »
More than that though, is the customability factor.  Two member of the same class in 4.0 mostly vary only by abilities chosen, and since almost all the abilities are combat focused, it's less a matter of what your character does than how he does it.

As opposed to 1st or 2nd edition where two characters of the same class only varied by their race selection and ability scores.

Or 3 & 3.5 where two characters of the same class varied only by race selection, feat selection, and ability scores.

Though by far the biggest improvement D&D 4th edition has brought is the ease which it lends itself to being a DM.  With the addition of the on-line Monster Builder setting up the fighting portion of adventures has never be quicker.
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #151 on: October 06, 2009, 02:33:49 am »
As it happens, one of my beefs with 4e is the token use of the internet in a crude attempt to appear hip. Get thee behind me hipness!
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Cramulus

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #152 on: October 06, 2009, 02:42:42 am »
part of the thinking was that they needed a monthly income drip. They did some market research and found a massive difference between the number of books they sold and the number of D&D players out there. This is because of (a) Piracy and (b) you can share 1 player's handbook between 5 players. 

Meanwhile, gaming stores all over the country are going under, because they lose in price contests with online warehouses. So they needed somewhere else to sell people games. In comes the second platform.

Long before 4th edition, the plan was to create a new "platform" for gaming somehow, some new way that people will game together. They hoped it'd be like how Magic and Pokemon created entire generations of gamers overnight.



The "play D&D live online with friends" thing they advertised in the back of the PH is vaporware. Never gonna happen. But I hear the other online content for D&D is very good.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #153 on: October 06, 2009, 02:43:47 am »
part of the thinking was that they needed a monthly income drip. They did some market research and found a massive difference between the number of books they sold and the number of D&D players out there. This is because of (a) Piracy and (b) you can share 1 player's handbook between 5 players. 

Meanwhile, gaming stores all over the country are going under, because they lose in price contests with online warehouses. So they needed somewhere else to sell people games. In comes the second platform.

Long before 4th edition, the plan was to create a new "platform" for gaming somehow, some new way that people will game together. They hoped it'd be like how Magic and Pokemon created entire generations of gamers overnight.



The "play D&D live online with friends" thing they advertised in the back of the PH is vaporware. Never gonna happen. But I hear the other online content for D&D is very good.

Sticking with Paizo's "Pathfinder", aka "3.75".

4th ed is NOT D&D, it's WoW on tabletop.
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Cramulus

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #154 on: October 06, 2009, 02:50:38 am »
 :deadhorse:

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #155 on: October 06, 2009, 02:51:29 am »
:deadhorse:

You have to be sure.  Those hosries can be tricky.
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PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #156 on: October 06, 2009, 07:05:05 am »
As it happens, one of my beefs with 4e is the token use of the internet in a crude attempt to appear hip. Get thee behind me hipness!

As a DM I find the on-line tolls and content to be of value. 

The Character Builder and Monster Builder are both wonderful.  And still only one person in the gaming group needs to get the subscription (usually the DM I would imagine). So if the price is too much to bear for one person then the cost could be spread out among the whole gaming group.  Also as a DM I find that the adventures in Dungeon are great for what any seasoned DM would do with an adventure he/she did write.  Ripping out the cool bits (in my case traps as part of an encounter rather than just wandering damage) and putting them into their otherwise original adventures.

If I ever get the chance to be a player in 4th Ed. I think I'd also enjoy the Dragon on-line content more as it presents new powers and feats for the currently published classes.

Also the preview content is cool.  I wasn't going to buy the PHB3 until I saw the article on Skill Powers which looks like a really cool idea.
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PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #157 on: October 06, 2009, 07:20:53 am »
4th ed is NOT D&D, it's WoW on tabletop.

I still don't see this as, unlike Wow or any other MMO, the content of a D&D game is tailored to the group playing it.  I have yet to hear of a story of a D&D group camping a spawn point to grind to high level so that they can finally go raid the epic MOBs for the good loot.

What D&D 4th Ed. has done is taken the spell choice of the caster classes from previous editions and given that functionality to everyone in the form of powers.  If there were an already existing game I'd compare D&D 4th Ed. to it would be Magic: The Gathering.

All classes are built off a unifying mechanic but the mechanic is implemented in such a way that the major roles all play differently.  Much like in M:TG all cards are built off the same mechanic but a Blue deck plays nothing like a Red deck.  Each role is then tweaked along class lines so as to have different ways to fulfill its function.  Rogue, Avenger, and Warlock are all Strikers but they each play differently to get a similar result (lots of damage on a single target).  Then style is refined a bit further within the classes themselves with different class build options.
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Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #158 on: October 06, 2009, 09:09:08 pm »
What D&D 4th Ed. has done is taken the spell choice of the caster classes from previous editions and given that functionality to everyone in the form of powers.  If there were an already existing game I'd compare D&D 4th Ed. to it would be Magic: The Gathering.

That sounds like a reasonable assessment...It certainly doesn't resemble D&D...
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Golden Applesauce

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #159 on: October 06, 2009, 10:47:17 pm »
What D&D 4th Ed. has done is taken the spell choice of the caster classes from previous editions and given that functionality to everyone in the form of powers.  If there were an already existing game I'd compare D&D 4th Ed. to it would be Magic: The Gathering.

All classes are built off a unifying mechanic but the mechanic is implemented in such a way that the major roles all play differently.  Much like in M:TG all cards are built off the same mechanic but a Blue deck plays nothing like a Red deck.  Each role is then tweaked along class lines so as to have different ways to fulfill its function.  Rogue, Avenger, and Warlock are all Strikers but they each play differently to get a similar result (lots of damage on a single target).  Then style is refined a bit further within the classes themselves with different class build options.

The major difference between 4e and M:TG there is that M:TG has over 10k cards, which can be played in any combination, and so many of them outright break the rules of the game - everything from altering the win condition to changing the way blocking damage is assigned.  So to extend the analogy, 4e is like magic where you can only have one copy of each card in your deck (except for lands and one-drops), every deck must consist entirely of cards from one color and block, and no more than 3 of your cards can do things other than "be a creature" and "affect a creature."  In other words, I wouldn't have liked MTG until after it was a mature game.

If every class had options comparable to what the casters in 3.x had, and I expect as the number of supplements approaches A Lot this will eventually happen, I probably would eventually switch.  (Well, actually, I'm trying to find a group to play HeroSystem with, since the level of customization and modularity in that game is far, far beyond anything I've encountered so far while still having a GM instead of a "Storyteller.")

In case this isn't blatantly obvious, I'm a Johnny (well Johnny/Spike, but I try to hold Spike back in the interest of group fun) and I spend more time planning for playing then actually playing, and when I do play, it's mostly for the social aspect /  :aaa: effect on everyone else's face when one of my plans comes together.  I like my systems convoluted and arcane; it's magic, it's supposed to be wonky.  It doesn't bother me at all that warlocks, psions, and sorcerers all operate on completely different magic systems; that just lets me pick whichever one I'm in the mood for.  The players generally only need to know the rules for their characters, since not many characters would actually know how a dozen different magic systems worked, and the GM doesn't have to learn anything he doesn't want in his game.

4e is D&D, it's just a version of D&D sans a number of elements I found especially enjoyable.  As the edition matures, if it isn't replaced by 4.2931 in the next six weeks, it will probably eventually have enough complexity and modularity for me to take another look at it.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #160 on: October 06, 2009, 11:17:30 pm »
4e never happened.

End of story.
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PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #161 on: October 06, 2009, 11:22:48 pm »
4e never happened.

End of story.

I believe you are thinking of Highlander II: The Quickening.
-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #162 on: October 06, 2009, 11:24:25 pm »
4e never happened.

End of story.

I believe you are thinking of Highlander II: The Quickening.

What is this of which you speak?  There was no Highlander II, either.

Likewise, the Phoenix Cardinals are a myth.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #163 on: October 06, 2009, 11:32:44 pm »
What D&D 4th Ed. has done is taken the spell choice of the caster classes from previous editions and given that functionality to everyone in the form of powers.  If there were an already existing game I'd compare D&D 4th Ed. to it would be Magic: The Gathering.

That sounds like a reasonable assessment...It certainly doesn't resemble D&D...

The games I have run using 4th Edition rules certainly have had both Dungeons as well as Dragons as elements of the stories being told.

What else does it take to be D&D?
Do we need to bring back THAC0? 
Do the Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling need to be relegated to classes in and of themselves again?
Perhaps just the really crappy art work needs to come back?

D&D is a RPG rules set for playing out stories in a high fantasy genre.  4th Ed. does that just as well as previous editions but also makes the job of the DM an order of magnitude easier.
-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #164 on: October 06, 2009, 11:34:29 pm »
What D&D 4th Ed. has done is taken the spell choice of the caster classes from previous editions and given that functionality to everyone in the form of powers.  If there were an already existing game I'd compare D&D 4th Ed. to it would be Magic: The Gathering.

That sounds like a reasonable assessment...It certainly doesn't resemble D&D...

The games I have run using 4th Edition rules certainly have had both Dungeons as well as Dragons as elements of the stories being told.

What else does it take to be D&D?
Do we need to bring back THAC0? 
Do the Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling need to be relegated to classes in and of themselves again?
Perhaps just the really crappy art work needs to come back?

D&D is a RPG rules set for playing out stories in a high fantasy genre.  4th Ed. does that just as well as previous editions but also makes the job of the DM an order of magnitude easier.

Is CRAP.  "Thievery" is ONE SKILL.  So, gathering info, cooking the books, moving silently, and disarming a trap are all the exact same thing.

Fighters heal themselves.

Isn't D&D.  Is Marvel Superheroes.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.