Poll

Who Wins?

Demi-Lich
21 (67.7%)
Tarrasque
10 (32.3%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: WARNING: D&D TALK  (Read 69423 times)

Cramulus

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WARNING: D&D TALK
« on: November 14, 2008, 04:09:03 pm »
I didn't want to jack an otherwise totally focused thread. Non-D&D-spags may feel free to chime in with asinine comments.

here's the post

Cram, a Demi-Lich would fucking DOLLYWHOMP the Tarrasque.  That is, as long as we're talking 3rd ed. or 3.5.  I never played 2nd, other than Baldurs Gate, which I understand is a bit different.

no fucking way

A) 3.5 Tarrasque is immune to most evocation
B) Spell Resistance
C) The tarrasque would just make a chart describing everything the demilich is about to do.

So the Demi-Lich kills him with Necromancy?  They can eat souls like 8 times per round, they've got all manner of spell like abilities that they could probably kill it with, without even resorting to casting spells, let alone epic-magic.

here are the stats:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

I'm pretty sure the tarrasque would win



reasoning:

A) the demi-lich's one-shot kill ability (Trap the Soul) allows the tarrasque a fortitude save at DC 36. The tarrasque's fortitude save is 38, so it literally can't fail. The tarrasque is also immune to the level drain, which is otherwise the reliable way to kill just about any big bad guy in 3.5

B) a tarrasque's full attack does about 100 damage a round. Demilich only has 129 hp.

C) To stand a chance, the lich would have get pretty creative with its wizard spells; even so, it'd have to roll above an 11 on spell resistance to affect the tarrasque.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 09:22:09 pm by Cramulus »

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2008, 04:14:47 pm »
I have no idea what any of this means, but I'm voting for the Tarrasque, because

1) Its name is more aesthetically pleasing, and
2) My friend who plays WoW is always prattling on about some retarded Lich King, and a Demi-Lich, by lexical similarity, must be equally retarded.

But neither would really win, because I tap 10 Swamp mana to play the BFM, and both get horribly raped.
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2008, 04:32:29 pm »
You're all wrong, the DM's girlfriend wins.

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2008, 04:32:42 pm »
*rolls D20 to blow up thread*
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Cramulus

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2008, 04:33:58 pm »
alright I've been thinking about this
(obviously)



The tarrasque is actually 9 challenge ratings lower than the lich, which in most fights would be a landslide. But the tarrasque doesn't have a lot of the vulnerabilities that adventurers have - vulnerabilities that the demi-lich is built to capitalize on. (energy drain, SR, nasty AC, immune to crits, etc)

and the major ability that the Demi Lich has on its side is actually its speed - it can fly 180 feet/round (36 squares) with perfect manuverability. The tarrasque, at its top run speed, only moves 80 feet/round (16 squares).

So theoretically it could hang out above the tarrasque's head and pelt it with 8th and 9th level spells. But keep in mind only half of them are going to work (spell resistance), an the demilich has to do 800+ points of damage while the tarrasque is regenerating 40/round. Then wish it dead.

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2008, 04:41:31 pm »
I'm inclined to say that the DM decides.
However, there's, ultimately, only one way to find out:

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2008, 04:48:09 pm »
Yeah, Tarrasque wins, IMO

Now, a demi-lich at full spell capacity with minions is quite possibly a different story.

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2008, 04:52:52 pm »
Tarrasque Wins. He is known and feared in the DnD world, when a DM says his name you know your fucked!

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2008, 05:26:44 pm »
My party has beaten many lichs and demi-liches...

The ONLY way we ever beat a Tarrasque was that he swallowed one of our people whole, and the weapon they happened to have, was useful from the inside.

Tarrasque  vs Demi-Lich = Tarrasque Wins.
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 05:57:24 pm »
(This post deals entirely with 3.5/3.0 ruleset.  Don't talk to me about 4th edition.)

Demilich, obviously.

Why: It has magic, items, and class levels, and superhuman intelligence.  Tarrasque has none of those, and the intelligence of a 6 month infant with multiple mental disorders.

Can the Tarrasque deal with a flying character?  No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an invisible character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an incorporeal character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with a Wall of Force? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with Solid Fog? No.

The Tarrasque only has a +20 Will save. A Demilich casts a 9th level spell (with all kinds of crazy metamagic on top of that, of course, but for save purposes it's lv. 9) with a base DC of 19.  At level 24 it would have at minimum an Int of 18 (base) + 6 (level increases) + 2 (being a lich) + 10 (being a demilich) + 5 (tome of quick thinking) + 6 (headband of intellect) = 47, which is a +18 modifier right there.  This is without spells and without epic magic items, both of which the demilich has access to.  (same for Charisma in the case of a cleric demilich.)  Right there, that's a save DC of 37, which the Tarrasque can only beat 15% of the time.  Throw in a Spell Focus or two, or heighten the spell above 9th level, and the Tarrasque literally can't beat the spell.  Spell resistance?  Hah.  Illusions don't allow spell resistance, and with only SR of 35, a demilich with epic spell penetration and some Archmage levels (using the Spell Power ability) can beat that every time.

So: Can the Tarrasque beat a heightened permanent suggestion or major image? No.

This is not counting the other things a demilich can do, like, say, hiring/mind controlling adventurers, creating high level undead, summoning higher demons, being the king of a huge nation, etc.

Also remember the demilich can shapechange into the Tarrasque anyway, and probably still cast its spells.
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2008, 06:08:05 pm »
Giant rock hits the planet, everyone DIES.

Cramulus

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2008, 06:36:01 pm »
Can the Tarrasque deal with a flying character?  No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an invisible character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with an incorporeal character? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with a Wall of Force? No.
Can the Tarrasque deal with Solid Fog? No.

you make some good points here
but let's not worry about items and feats and class levels and minions --- this is a stat card vs stat card battle

shapechange is no good, the lich would only become a 25HD tarrasque... and besides, you can't turn into unique creatures with shapechange, which rules out big T right off the bat.

nor would suggestion work, as the Tarrasque doesn't know any languages.

the lich has an easy, easy time staying out of the Tarrasque's range. Walls of force, teleportation, flying 100 feet off the ground... Tarrasque can do nothing about that.

Or the lich could just go invisible and stand still and continue to stillcast / silent cast spells, and the Tarrasque would never find him (spot & listen 17) -- but what spells? The lich has to do 868 points of damage on top of the Tarrasque regenerating 40/round.

I think if it came down to it, it might be a stalemate. Unless the tarrasque can actually close the distance and get in a full attack.

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2008, 06:58:40 pm »
Giant rock hits the planet, everyone DIES.

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Cramulus

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2008, 07:44:34 pm »
and I think you're right about illusions being the way to slay the thing. The Tarrasque's will save is only +20. But remember, you've gotta neg ten it AND wish it dead in the same round, or it's gonna get back up in six seconds.

If I were the demilich, here's how I would do it:

*Go invisible. Fly above big T's head.
*If fighting in close quarters, allow yourself to be swallowed whole - being in the tarrasque's stomach is safer than facing its full attack, and the lich can stillcast while grappled anyway.
*Use a quickened phantasmal-killer spell - you have to be quick, because you need the standard action to cast wish and finish the thing.

The Tarrasque gets three rolls to resist the PK: spell resist, will save, fortitude save. If he fails all three, he will die of fear (but still be regenerating) and the lich will wish him dead.

If the lich can't get off the wish spell, he'll have to find a way to do 40 damage AND cast a wish in the same round. Which I think might be impossible given the tarrasque's immunities to rays, cones, fire, poison, disease, energy drain, etc etc etc

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2008, 07:52:47 pm »
You're all wrong, the DM's girlfriend wins.
Heh, depends on the DM; sometimes she's free game.
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