Poll

Who Wins?

Demi-Lich
21 (67.7%)
Tarrasque
10 (32.3%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: WARNING: D&D TALK  (Read 84384 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #210 on: October 08, 2009, 07:38:32 pm »
All change is good.  The Fonz should have gotten an Oscar for the scene where he jumps the shark.  Adding commercials to cable TV in 1984 was brilliant.

And Coke II was the best thing to happen, ever.  Ever.

Some change is good, some is bad, most is meh.

Though as far as 4th Ed is concerned I'm not sure how you can judge what kind of change it is as a previous post suggests that you have neither played or even read the new rules.

Yes, and you also suggested that I hadn't a grasp of the concept of hit points.  Then you acted surprised when I did, in the same fashion that I would act if I witnessed a retarded person repair a Cray Supercomputer.

Look, Tom, I'll be more than happy to respond to your arguments when you ease up a little on the strawmen and ad hominems.

Until then, you have a nice day now, y'hear?
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #211 on: October 08, 2009, 08:01:35 pm »
Anyway, I tend to favor a wounding system over a hit point system, with negatives applied to statistics based on severity of wounds. Also Burning Wheel employs an interesting double-blind system regarding combat footing and attitude.

The problem with applying penalties for wounds over the course of a combat is it tends to form a downward spiral.  A situation where once one side gets hurt it has basically become the losing side. It is rare that that kind of situation is ever fun for players.

There are many fun games that do this.

PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #212 on: October 08, 2009, 08:28:55 pm »
All change is good.  The Fonz should have gotten an Oscar for the scene where he jumps the shark.  Adding commercials to cable TV in 1984 was brilliant.

And Coke II was the best thing to happen, ever.  Ever.

Some change is good, some is bad, most is meh.

Though as far as 4th Ed is concerned I'm not sure how you can judge what kind of change it is as a previous post suggests that you have neither played or even read the new rules.

Yes, and you also suggested that I hadn't a grasp of the concept of hit points.  Then you acted surprised when I did, in the same fashion that I would act if I witnessed a retarded person repair a Cray Supercomputer.

Look, Tom, I'll be more than happy to respond to your arguments when you ease up a little on the strawmen and ad hominems.

Until then, you have a nice day now, y'hear?

And the post I was responding to wasn't setting up a some kind of fallacy that I do not know the name of off the top of my head?

I had assumed that you did not grasp the concept of hit points because up until your post every single person who thinks D&D is 'ruint 4 eva' because Fighters have some ability to heal themselves also thinks that every hit point lost equates to axe wounds and blood split.

And an ad hominim would be me saying that your argument is wrong because you're a mean jerk-face.  I think your argument is wrong because, so far, you don't seem to have demonstrated any experience with the thing you are arguing against.  I don't, however, doubt that you may have experience with versions of D&D 3.5 and earlier, or with other RPG systems.

So I will ask:

Have you read the 4th Edition Rules?

Have you played a game using the 4th edition rules?

a 'yes' to both questions would be great as I'd love to discuss where someone who has read and played 4th Ed. still finds it lacking.

Yes to the 1st question and no to the second question while not ideal would still allow for discussion on where you feel 4th Edition falls short of previous editions.

A no to both questions makes me wonder how you can criticize 4th Edition compared to earlier editions and/or other RPGs since you seem to lack the knowledge of the content of that which you criticize. 
-PopeTom

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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #213 on: October 08, 2009, 08:30:05 pm »
I wish you hadn't wasted all that time typing.  I already told you I'm not going to put up with your shit, nor am I willing to derail this thread further.

Good day.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #214 on: October 08, 2009, 08:45:39 pm »
I wish you hadn't wasted all that time typing.  I already told you I'm not going to put up with your shit, nor am I willing to derail this thread further.

Good day.

Great don't derail the thread then.

Answer these questions:

Have you read the 4th Edition Rules?

Have you played a game using the 4th edition rules?

I believe they are on topic for where the thread has wandered from its original intent.
-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 ± 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!

Requia ☣

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #215 on: October 08, 2009, 10:15:47 pm »
I'm trying to think of a game I've played that didn't use hit points (or a similar variation) and am drawing a blank.  I don't think the d20 version of Mutants & Masterminds used hit point, but they did have optional rules to add them back in.  I can't remember what World of Darkness systems use, all I can remember is my character sheet looking like an SAT answer sheet.

Mutants and masterminds does not use hit points, and second edition doesn't have any optional rules for adding them in (first might, I have no idea where my first edition book is though).

WoD uses a combination hit point/wounding system.
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2009, 10:58:35 pm »
On Pathfinder, the new way of doing experience annoys me greatly for being hard to memorize (of course, half the DMs I've played with lately ignore experience points, and just award levels every now and then), and the pointbuy system is possibly even more screwy than the 3.5 pointbuy (what is it with designers always underestimating the number of points needed to mimic an average roll of the dice?), it pretty much forces fighters to wear full plate instead of giving them a fast but lightly armored option, and one of the 'abilities' for spellcasters is a huge liability (though I almost want to make that liability mandatory, just so I have a slightly better way to cripple spellcasters than tying them up and gagging them).

Some things just didn't get fixed, you still have to be really high level to do certain cool but not hugely powerful things (this is better at least, being a cat no longer takes level 11), its still impossible to run a marathon as fast as my 50 year old mother does.  Level one characters still die in a stiff breeze.  There are still monks.

A lot of other things are awesome though. cantrips have gone from something used for light spells to incredibly useful noncombat tools (pretty much the opposite direction of 4th), Sorcerers are still technically weaker than wizards, but now look like a lot of fun to play.  There are core options for making a high level fighter semi usable (doesn't solve the high level problem but its better).  You can never take an animal companion or familiar again unless you want to.  Skills work 10000 better.  Multiclassing is slightly less painful, favored class actually does something, and for once in the history of D&D, making magic items is practical without resorting to bizarre classes or house rules.

Everything the player needs is actually in the core book too, no more borrowing the DMG every time a campaign starts above level 1.
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PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #217 on: October 08, 2009, 11:02:47 pm »
I'm trying to think of a game I've played that didn't use hit points (or a similar variation) and am drawing a blank.  I don't think the d20 version of Mutants & Masterminds used hit point, but they did have optional rules to add them back in.  I can't remember what World of Darkness systems use, all I can remember is my character sheet looking like an SAT answer sheet.

Mutants and masterminds does not use hit points, and second edition doesn't have any optional rules for adding them in (first might, I have no idea where my first edition book is though).

WoD uses a combination hit point/wounding system.

While I personally enjoyed the M&M d20 conversion (the original is a d10 system isn't it?) the combination of it being a bit too far removed for standard d20 made it difficult for my players to wrap their heads around.  I had considered buying the original version, but I only have super hero stories in me, not super hero campaigns. :)
-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 ± 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!

PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #218 on: October 08, 2009, 11:06:34 pm »
cantrips have gone from something used for light spells to incredibly useful noncombat tools (pretty much the opposite direction of 4th)

I am curious about this statement and would request that you go into further detail.  Especally as it pertains to the bolded part.

Thank you.
-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 ± 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #219 on: October 08, 2009, 11:08:55 pm »
The original is d20 as well, or True20 rather, which is Green Ronin's departure from the WotC stuff.
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PopeTom

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #220 on: October 08, 2009, 11:16:45 pm »
The original is d20 as well, or True20 rather, which is Green Ronin's departure from the WotC stuff.

Hrmm, maybe I'm thinking of Silverage Sentinels that was a d20 conversion.  There was a point a gaming group I was involved with were desperatly looking for anything not set in space or in a dungeon.  We went through 3 different supers rule sets as well as an attempt to adapt 7th Sea to the super hero genre.
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #221 on: October 08, 2009, 11:47:19 pm »
I'm trying to think of a game I've played that didn't use hit points (or a similar variation) and am drawing a blank.  I don't think the d20 version of Mutants & Masterminds used hit point, but they did have optional rules to add them back in.  I can't remember what World of Darkness systems use, all I can remember is my character sheet looking like an SAT answer sheet.

Mutants and masterminds does not use hit points, and second edition doesn't have any optional rules for adding them in (first might, I have no idea where my first edition book is though).

WoD uses a combination hit point/wounding system.

Burning Wheel, Shadowrun, WoD, and Nobilis all off the top of my head. WoD definately does not use an HP system, its wounding.
There are a lot of indie games that stray from an HP system, some of the more esoteric once I neglect to mention.

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #222 on: October 09, 2009, 12:01:30 am »
cantrips have gone from something used for light spells to incredibly useful noncombat tools (pretty much the opposite direction of 4th)

I am curious about this statement and would request that you go into further detail.  Especially as it pertains to the bolded part.

Thank you.

One of my big complaints about 4th is that there aren't a lot of noncombat spells.  I mean yes, throwing fireballs is part of what a wizard does, but they also dig ditches and build fortifications when they need to.  Some of its problem solving, but a lot of its roleplaying tools, and its those that 4th is especially weak on.  One of my favorite builds ever was a bard designed around the idea of using illusion spells as a form of performance.

In pathfinder you can spam the level 0 spells endlessly, which means you have a host of flavor spells (which once in a blue moon solve puzzles, or if you're very lucky would be useful for killing rats) that you can use to do things at an RP level.
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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #223 on: October 09, 2009, 01:32:16 am »
cantrips have gone from something used for light spells to incredibly useful noncombat tools (pretty much the opposite direction of 4th)

I am curious about this statement and would request that you go into further detail.  Especially as it pertains to the bolded part.

Thank you.

One of my big complaints about 4th is that there aren't a lot of noncombat spells.  I mean yes, throwing fireballs is part of what a wizard does, but they also dig ditches and build fortifications when they need to.  Some of its problem solving, but a lot of its roleplaying tools, and its those that 4th is especially weak on.  One of my favorite builds ever was a bard designed around the idea of using illusion spells as a form of performance.

In pathfinder you can spam the level 0 spells endlessly, which means you have a host of flavor spells (which once in a blue moon solve puzzles, or if you're very lucky would be useful for killing rats) that you can use to do things at an RP level.

Its fun to play utility wizards and item creators in 3.5, I dont think I'd try to do it in 4th. By far, my biggest problem with fourth was actually the absence of gnomes in favor of some furry other-kin bullshit.

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Re: WARNING: D&D 3.5 TALK: Demi-Lich vs Tarrasque
« Reply #224 on: October 09, 2009, 01:36:19 am »
Gnomes are still playable, you just need the MM for the stats.
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