DISCORDIA: A Brief Critique

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

the first trace would have nothing to do with fingerprints: amass a list of where each package was mailed from using the postmark, then cross-reference those locations with the known membership of known networks, beginning with the high-profile organizations and working your way down. when you find nothing, then you'd analyze internet traffic and try to find websites that are frequently accessed by a set of nodes that is roughly similar to the map of package senders. which, of course, would lead them directly to PD. once you find somebody's internet tracks it's fairly easy to zero in on their IRL identity.

the answer to this is to work out an internet communication system that either masks your physical location (hard to do) or where individual members don't access the same central location (also hard to do).

just saying.

Oh, you already covered it.

[fomenter]

on doing something big --
it is a natural and appropriate urge to want to score a big reaction, to want to throw the golden apple that makes the gods dance... and why not, it's a part of the mythology, a small and relatively valueless (to gods) hunk of gold causing such mischief, it doesn't get any better. this is why the the "do something big" is a recurring theme in the M/F threads and i think it should be. promoting and advancing discordia, new books, new ideas and new people exposed are great and worthy causes and should be pursued, but promoting discord itself rolling the little snowball that becomes an avalanche, telling the story that becomes a media frenzy, "tossing the apple" this an idea that appeals to most of us, not to be famous or rich or even necessarily to make the world a better place just a weirder place, a less complaisant one a world that stays on its toes expecting the unexpected, a world that considers that things may not quit be as they seem a world that throws challenges at peoples understanding of the nature of perception. it is not an easy thing to do... but then maybe it is the little snow ball the simple story these are not tough to do, we tell stories make posters and toss a little discord around, it may just be a matter of time till something we do happens at the right time and place to escalate in the way we desire, it may be a matter of practice and study to begin to recognize that right time and place. 
   

[Eater of Clowns]

I like the original post, but I don't like where the discussion is leading.  Firstly, on the subject of the DVD that says "Imagine this was a bomb."  This is a terrible idea.  It wastes time and resources and ultimately only serves to piss people off or terrify them.  This is the essence of the "System" that it is supposed to be undermining.  It won't memebomb anyone, it won't wake anyone up, it'll just get them to villify whatever it's supposed to be introducing them to.  One of my favorite aspects of the PD is that it doesn't take itself too seriously even as it introduces serious ideas - the mention of the word bomb is very very serious, even if it might be funny to some to watch the ensuing confusion.  I responded to a bomb threat at one point, and while the word "scary" didn't run through my head, neither did the word "funny" (which leaves out horrormirth).  My reaction was more akin to frustration, and I'm someone who rarely takes things seriously.

I think a children's book is a great idea, as well as a reimagining of the PD.  Crucial to both of these will be maintaining the tone of relative levity, the lack of which is my principle critique against BIP (no offense to the contributors, who clearly have a more thorough understanding of this than me).  Subtly hinting at key ideas rather than overtly stating them would be the way to go here.

I propose a mainstream exposure, but not an evangelical one.  Why not make Discordianism MORE secretive, give it an almost secret society reputation, one that everyone knows exists but isn't sure why (think Freemasons, Skull and Bones).  If you go around saying "We want you to join us" people will say "why should I?" whereas if you say "we're here, but we only want some of you to join us" people will say "ME FIRST."  Then we can only actually be selective and private for appearances.  It will also attract the more ambitious recruits who are willing to learn of their own accord rather than have a pretty heavy set of ideas force fed to them.  This allows for Discordianism to be private and decentralized as many here wish it to remain, all it does is say "Shh.  It's a secret."

But what about one of the central tenets of the Principia, that everyone who reads it is a pope and people are free to do with it what they like?  Well, we're doing with it what we like in just one cabal.  Once people are interested and in our cabal, we can make it perfectly clear they're free to create their own, etc.  Remember, it's the appearance of secrecy that's important, the implied conspiracy to put it in Vex's terms.

So I think one comprehensive, intuitively designed website would be all that's necessary for the bulk of this.  After that, viral marketing towards that website in the form of, say, putting note cards in mailboxes with the golden apple and "To the prettiest one - www.ourwebsite.com."

Great post, for the record.

[hooplala]

Why not make Discordianism MORE secretive, give it an almost secret society reputation, one that everyone knows exists but isn't sure why (think Freemasons, Skull and Bones).  If you go around saying "We want you to join us" people will say "why should I?" whereas if you say "we're here, but we only want some of you to join us" people will say "ME FIRST." 

I like this.  I can imagine it being much more effective.

Cults try to draw people in, the groups with actual functioning material that works for people don't need to. 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

If membership is what we're after there are a number of things that need to be considered. First, what are the members for? If they're just people we want to be around, that's fine, but that's all there may be to it. If they are supposed to fill some useful task that requires a larger number of people, then they need to be evaluated according to more criteria than simply whether we like them or not. In some cases, people we have absolutely no use for otherwise could serve well.

In terms of membership, Discordianism lends itself well to the inner/outer circle thing. This is something that's been discussed here before. I think there is a place for the mindless Fnorders (not that all Fnorders are mindless) as the 'foot soldiers' of Discordia, as well as a place for more substantial minds.

The model in use at PD is actually pretty damn good. Our membership grows and we accumulate worthwhile people, if not quickly, at least reliably. If we could take the way we bring people on board and expand it beyond this forum somehow, we'd be on track I think.

The problem is in getting anywhere without turning the Discordia into a formal 'organization.'

[Cain]

I like the OP, a lot.

I think however, the focus should be on the first critique in the post, that of identity/coherent vision.

There is already one coherent vision...that of what many of us like to think of the early Discordian movement, in particular the Pinealists.  We have our own culture here, of course, but it has not spread far?  Why not?  Because people act in predictable and knee-jerk ways when people think you are sneering at them.  If they feel ridiculed or put upon, most likely they will act even more that way in order to piss you off.

Also, groups with two identifiable camps quickly become both stable and boring.  For more, see: Cold War, American Politics.  A third element is required to both spice things up and have a creative mix.

How does such an identity arise?  Well, you can leave such things to chance...but why be so risky?  Production of values and schemas is a far more effective way to go about it.  As I recall, the original PD06 project, which the BIP was born out of, was an attempt to take all sort of themes associated with the PD and repackage them in modern garb.  We were wildly successful with the BIP, which was of course in many ways an expansion of the Law of Fives.

We stopped at the BIP, which in hindsight was lacking in vision.

But what to Discordians, or indeed any other sort of countercultural type resonate with now?  Both within such books as the PD, the Book of the Subgenius etc and also outside of those circles?  Its an Empire of Signs out there, and we have to be able to effectively attract and communicate with our own if we hope to get anywhere.  And that means building up a whole new vocubulary of metaphors and symbols which people like us will want to use, and want to have as conceptual tools.

We would need to identify such potential Discordian concepts (for want of a better way of expressing it), and produce media relating to ALL of them.  And then propagate it has hard as possible, preferably through such methods as the GASMs are advertised, in addition to through previously unused channels, like forums, blogs, more usual propaganda venues, etc.

The work however will come in compiling the Master List, the metasymbological reference system we intend to use to come up with this manufacture of identity.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I like the original post, but I don't like where the discussion is leading.  Firstly, on the subject of the DVD that says "Imagine this was a bomb."  This is a terrible idea.  It wastes time and resources and ultimately only serves to piss people off or terrify them.  This is the essence of the "System" that it is supposed to be undermining.  It won't memebomb anyone, it won't wake anyone up, it'll just get them to villify whatever it's supposed to be introducing them to.  One of my favorite aspects of the PD is that it doesn't take itself too seriously even as it introduces serious ideas - the mention of the word bomb is very very serious, even if it might be funny to some to watch the ensuing confusion.  I responded to a bomb threat at one point, and while the word "scary" didn't run through my head, neither did the word "funny" (which leaves out horrormirth).  My reaction was more akin to frustration, and I'm someone who rarely takes things seriously.

I think a children's book is a great idea, as well as a reimagining of the PD.  Crucial to both of these will be maintaining the tone of relative levity, the lack of which is my principle critique against BIP (no offense to the contributors, who clearly have a more thorough understanding of this than me).  Subtly hinting at key ideas rather than overtly stating them would be the way to go here.

I propose a mainstream exposure, but not an evangelical one.  Why not make Discordianism MORE secretive, give it an almost secret society reputation, one that everyone knows exists but isn't sure why (think Freemasons, Skull and Bones).  If you go around saying "We want you to join us" people will say "why should I?" whereas if you say "we're here, but we only want some of you to join us" people will say "ME FIRST."  Then we can only actually be selective and private for appearances.  It will also attract the more ambitious recruits who are willing to learn of their own accord rather than have a pretty heavy set of ideas force fed to them.  This allows for Discordianism to be private and decentralized as many here wish it to remain, all it does is say "Shh.  It's a secret."

But what about one of the central tenets of the Principia, that everyone who reads it is a pope and people are free to do with it what they like?  Well, we're doing with it what we like in just one cabal.  Once people are interested and in our cabal, we can make it perfectly clear they're free to create their own, etc.  Remember, it's the appearance of secrecy that's important, the implied conspiracy to put it in Vex's terms.

So I think one comprehensive, intuitively designed website would be all that's necessary for the bulk of this.  After that, viral marketing towards that website in the form of, say, putting note cards in mailboxes with the golden apple and "To the prettiest one - www.ourwebsite.com."

Great post, for the record.

Also, for the record, I have to say that I am less interested in seeing new projects of grand scope started, then in seeing older projects finished. We have a gorgeous new homepage that just needs to be polished up and installed, we have a really nice blog that needs more contributors, and to be linked to and promoted, and we have the Etcetera Discordia just waiting to be published... I think we can't expect to make an impression with new projects if we can't finish any of them.

I am not criticizing anyone for the incomplete projects; it takes a lot of work, coordination, and most of all time. I'm just saying I'm not sure we need NEW projects as much as we need time, inspiration, and energy to finish old ones.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I don't think 'new' projects are the way to go, either. We need to start seeing the ongoing projects that we already have (GASMs, etc) as tools, and come up with an larger framework to use those tools. I think our problem isn't that we don't have enough projects, but that we have all these projects that are all unrelated. If we could manage to get some correlation between all these projects, that alone might be enough to drive more curiosity. If not, it's at least a good place to start.

[hooplala]

But aren't they all related if they have Discordian as their core?  That's like saying all books about Batman by different authors are unrelated.  It doesn't jive.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Yes, they're related, but they lack a certain cohesion. I really think the one thing our activities lack more than anything else is a basic level of coordination. Even small MFs, if they happen simultaneously in multiple places, get picked up and examined far better than if they're isolated.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that all of these projects can be tied together through our homepage and our blog. I wish I was more technically savvy, so I could help with it... I know the people working on it already have a lot on their plates.

[OPTIMUS PINECONE]

     The key really is organization and persistence to execution.

     I don't think crystallizing an "identity" is possible OR remotely necessary.

     If we're assuming the "Discordianism" in question is essentially those people comprising this board, I say:

     1) It is in fact the vague "core" of "P.D" bringing all the VERY DIFFERENT viewpoints/ works here. There's no comparison between Cram's prank obsessions with Cain's 'politiks' obsession, for instance, but it gives the CURRENT "P.D." it's definition & dimension.

      2) Discordian-ism will always change & evolve, but what the focus HERE is THIS VERY IMMEDIATE MOVEMENT. What it is, how it continues the "spirit" of Discordianism.

     Really, if someone from this board got media attention RIGHT NOW, (which related to discordianism) - which brought focus to this board, what would people find here which would be lasting or defining?

      Firstly, this board needs to be representing accomplished act more currently. Where for instance, is the easy link to Cram's youtube rants?

     Secondly, Just do more. Seriously. A magazine/ print work? Sure, but just DO IT and those very real efforts CONSTITUTE something worth drawing attention.

     With more organization, hold events, put out product, don't worry about the cult aspect. Every person who gets turned on to the "P.D" walks away with their own personal p.d. But until graspable images labelled with "P.D" are in people's sphere, it's just here, on this board.

     PRODUCT & PUSH IT.

     

[Fractalbeard]

I'm really liking the entire content of this thread.  Many good points, ideas, yadda yadda.

Some recurring themes I see here are those of becoming more vocal yet not preachy, more visible yet not "in the spotlight," so to speak.  It is possible, though perhaps with some caution.

Unless my perceptions are naive and/or way off, some eastern philosophies (Dao comes to mind) seem to walk the balance very well, for the most part.

It's not simply a matter of saying the right things, but of saying the right things in just the right way, at just the right time, at just the right place.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I really think the most major weakness we are facing is the lack of an easily accessible clearinghouse for Discordian works, and that the easy, efficient means for creating that is to implement 000's kick-ass homepage design, with links to the blog, and to other recent awesome projects like Cram's Youtube and any other works that have been assembled in the last year or so.

[Cain]

     The key really is organization and persistence to execution.

     I don't think crystallizing an "identity" is possible OR remotely necessary.

     If we're assuming the "Discordianism" in question is essentially those people comprising this board, I say:

     1) It is in fact the vague "core" of "P.D" bringing all the VERY DIFFERENT viewpoints/ works here. There's no comparison between Cram's prank obsessions with Cain's 'politiks' obsession, for instance, but it gives the CURRENT "P.D." it's definition & dimension.

      2) Discordian-ism will always change & evolve, but what the focus HERE is THIS VERY IMMEDIATE MOVEMENT. What it is, how it continues the "spirit" of Discordianism.

     Really, if someone from this board got media attention RIGHT NOW, (which related to discordianism) - which brought focus to this board, what would people find here which would be lasting or defining?

      Firstly, this board needs to be representing accomplished act more currently. Where for instance, is the easy link to Cram's youtube rants?

     Secondly, Just do more. Seriously. A magazine/ print work? Sure, but just DO IT and those very real efforts CONSTITUTE something worth drawing attention.

     With more organization, hold events, put out product, don't worry about the cult aspect. Every person who gets turned on to the "P.D" walks away with their own personal p.d. But until graspable images labelled with "P.D" are in people's sphere, it's just here, on this board.

     PRODUCT & PUSH IT.

     

To be honest, I don't see too much difference from what you and me are saying.  I am dead set against a single Discordian identity (Indeed, many of my critical rants here re; Discordianism have been about attempts to codify Discordianism - usually by the hippie/blissninny/pagan/pineal brigade, but still...).

What I was hoping was to help produce many different strands within Discordianism and a wider, related culture, by focusing on those particular strands and creating media related to them, then propagating it via the GASMs and this site, as Nigel mentioned, as a clearinghouse for such material.

So for example, I could work on spreading Discordian themes through political arenas of discourse, and relating current events back to Discordian ideas. Cram could do similar work with the pranking networks that have sprung up.  Both of us are actually attempting something like this with the ARG we are working on.

People come to relate what they like and enjoy within a Discordian theme or flavour.  They bring their own interests to the table, but expressed and packaged by us in such a way that they are somehow inter-relating with Discordianism as a whole.

That last sentence sucked, but I think its meaning is implicit via the rest of the post.