The Black Iron DUNGEON vs the Black Iron PRISON

[Dead Kennedy]

He's not contradicting you. He is simply disagreeing with your sentiment that you are contradicting Cain in any way.

...but I'm not contradicting Cain.  If you are correct, he's disagreeing with a sentiment I don't hold.  My point is that the metaphor Cain is using has flaws that can potentially distort people's understanding of the issues Cain raises, introducing unnecessary confusion.  I'm not actually addressing Cain's issues, but the metaphor implicit in the terminology he is using to discuss those issues.

A metaphor is a map, right?  It's a map of an idea that helps us to understand the idea.  But maps are dangerous, because they necessarily simplify the territory.  The map is not the territory, yeah?  By simplifying the territory the map distorts the territory.  So what I'm talking about is the way the metaphor is distorting the territory.  I'm not suggesting that Cain change the territory, I'm suggesting he change the map.

The metaphor of the Black Iron Prison makes sense, because there actually is a real separation between the individual-qua-individual and the reality-qua-simulacra that the BIP signifies, one can overcome (escape) the reality-qua-simulacra, and existing inside the reality-qua-simulacra is unpleasant and limits one's potential.

So because the simulacra is not inherent to the individual, but rather something that is built up around them as they develop and "learn" to "understand" the world, the metaphor of the prisoner (individual-qua-individual) sentenced to prison (reality-qua-simulacra) by society (literally society) is apt.  The metaphor can even be extended -- if you escape prison, most people will believe you belong there and should go back.  Sometimes, if your refuse to go back, they'll kill you.  That's true whether you're talking about the Black Iron Prison or Attica.

Where the metaphor breaks down is a creative point which actually makes the metaphor more powerful:  Unlike "real" prison, the walls of the Black Iron Prison are illusory, and tearing them apart is as easy as recognizing them.  If you've just told someone they are a prisoner, then it's Good News that escape is not only possible, but actually pretty easy. (Of course, then you have to warn them about Chapel perilous, which is like yanking the carpet out from under someone's feet right after helping them up).

The metaphor of a person in a dungeon to describe the limitations imposed by physical existence is not so apt.  First there's that problem that Foucalt's distinction between prisons and dungeons is pretty arbitrary and dependent on heaps of qualifiers.   It's not really a dungeon, it's a dungeon that nobody built,nobody maintains, and which apparently has no wardens coming into to feed the prisoners.  It's true that Black Iron Dungeon that Nobody Built, Nobody Maintains, and has No Wardens, Guards or Records is a fucking mouthful, but without those qualifiers, a dungeon pretty much is a prison.

For example dictionary.com defines a dungeon as "a strong, dark prison or cell, usually underground, as in a medieval castle." and "A dark, often underground chamber or cell used to confine prisoners." and "A close, dark prison, common?, under ground, as if the lower apartments of the donjon or keep of a castle, these being used as prisons."  It's hard to escape the conflation of the two ideas, since they broadly refer to the same concept (a place to imprison people).

The same elements of the prisoner-prison relationship that make prison an apt metaphor for reality-qua-simulacra make it a lousy metaphor for the limitations of reality-qua-reality. 

Unlike the simulacra, reality-qua-reality is inherent to the individual, not something that is built up around them as they develop and "learn" to "understand" the world.  It is the world.  There is no separation between the individual and reality-qua-reality because they exist on a continuum.  The dividing line between reality-qua-reality and the individual is entirely arbitrary.

Unlike the simulacra, one cannot escape reality-qua-reality.  To recognize that the worship of God as a paternalistic figure that one must be obsequious towards is a form of conditioning to inculcate obedience to paternalistic authority figures is recognize that a wall of the prison.  Once recognized, one only needs the courage to step through the wall to the other side.  Then you are that much closer to escaping reality-qua-simulacra (of course, you're also that much closer to entering Chapel Perilous).

Recognizing that the walls of reality are actually only a cloud of electrons, protons and neutrons and that everything is primarily composed of empty space changes your understanding of the reality, but you still can't walk through the wall. There is no escaping from reality.

Finally, living in reality-qua-reality is not inherently unpleasant.  Through a combination of paying attention, applying accurate models in efficient ways, freeing oneself from attachments, and developing a positive attitude one can have a VERY positive and enjoyable experience of reality.  There's really no way to make the Black Iron Prison, the reality of the simulacra, an enjoyable experience because it's an inherently self-denying trip.

That's why I don't think the prisoner in the dungeon metaphor is apt.  It doesn't accurately capture the relationship of the individual to the limitations of reality-qua-reality.

[Telarus]

Nice, Tosk.

The training/breakthrough/action metaphor crops up in the mythologies as "First it is a mountain (we look at it from the base, it seems a series of steps and assents), then it isn't a mountain (the act of climbing does not include an internal narrative, we see from the windy peak and the mountain disappears, wrapped up in the POV), then it is a mountain again (we have Named the technique, we can drop the terrible peak down upon those that strive to hurt us)."

[Dead Kennedy]

That One Guy's post is great, but it also REALLY demonstrates why using the terms Dungeon and Prison at the same time to refer to different things is really confusing.

I think that's something we've recognized since starting the BIP metaphor originally. Thus Cain's post to help start the discussion that there needs to be a more solid differentiation of the metaphor, into Dungeon vs. Prison as posited by Cain, and Cell vs. Prison as refined by me.

How about Prisoner vs. Prison?

"Cell" bugs me because cells can't escape from prisons, and it just seems weird to set up a metaphor where you can escape the prison but not your cell.  And, of course, it still has the damn Cartesian relationship built in, with the invitation to see oneself as a prisoner (mind) in the cell (body).

The more thoroughly we eradicate Cartesian metaphors from Discordian thought the more thoroughly we can repudiate Otherkin.  If Discordianism cannot repudiate Otherkinism, then Discordianism is broken.  AND we'll have Discordian Elves.   And I fucking hate Discordian Elves.  And if we use a "you're trapped forever in your cell" metaphor then you'll end up with someone claiming they are REALLY a dragon trapped in a human shaped cell.

Gag.

Prisoner vs Prison is a cool metaphor because when one escapes the Prison one is an Escaped Convict, a good analogy for how the world will treat you.  And you can't escape the prisoner.  That doesn't even make sense, so it doesn't beg the metaphor drift.

[AFK]

You CAN'T escape the prison.  The prison represents all that we can experience as humans.  Humans, because of the limitations of their brain, among other things, can only actually gain experience from a certain percentage of the larger universe or Reality.  As such, it is physically and mentally impossible for us to ever escape the prison.  That's why the cells are important.  We can't escape the prison but we can move from one cell to another. 

[That One Guy]

As RWHN said, the BIP is, in itself, inescapable in either definition set.

The ambiguity or confusion of the RWHN model in relation to the "jailbreak" concept is why Cain started this topic - to help establish terms to differentiate between that which CAN be changed vs. that which CAN'T. In the RWHN model, the fact that there are some bars of the BIP that cannot be changed because they represent the absolute physical/physiological limits is one of the underlying assumptions. When one refers to a "jailbreak" in that model by "just turning around", IE altering the order of those bars that are changeable, one is not leaving the BIP, but only rearranging the bars of the BIP, effectively "breaking out" from the previous configuration of bars into a new configuration, one that can hopefully be continuously rearranged at will.

This is, admittedly, not necessarily intuitive, and if one doesn't realize the assumed variables of the earlier model, it leads to a need for a differentiation between those bars that can be changed (the Cell in my terminology) and those bars that cannot be changed (the Prison Walls or Outer Walls in my terminology). Thus Cain starting this thread, and my refining of terms.

To take the Otherkin example, a person with that suffers from that mindstate would be described as follows:

Using RWHN's terminology, the person has arranged the bars of their human-limited BIP into a configuration that they perceive as an inaccurate representation of their experiences in relation to those human-limiting bars (IE that of human physiology) and thus construct those bars they are able to change (IE, the social constructs) in such a way that it reinforces their perception of being in the wrong BIP. It does not change the fact that they are a human-limited BIP (they're not elves or dragons or whatever, no matter how much surgery they might do to themselves - that's just more reinforcement of the incorrect perception of the BIP). In order to shift away from this perception, they have to reorient themselves in relation to the unchangeable bars (IE, recognize that they are, in fact, human and restructure their other, changeable bars accordingly).

To look at it in my terminology, the person has created a Cell within the human-limited BIP that is configured in such a  way as to give a false impression of the Cell's relation to the Walls that shape the BIP (IE, they have convinced themselves, despite physical evidence, that their BIP, while human, is not the "correct" BIP against the empirical evidence as it is their ONLY BIP). The Cell can be escaped from in that they can move out from the confines of one Cell into another Cell that does not conflict with the overall structure of the Walls within the BIP (IE, they realize they're actually human, not something else and change their social relationships and limitations accordingly). The BIP itself is inescapable, but the Cell used to relate within that larger framework is maleable, escapable, changeable.

In both models an individual is, at one and the same time, confined in both the Cell/bars as a whole AND in the BIP as a whole. One can change the Cell/some of the bars, but not change the prison as a whole (the BIP) as it is the embodiment of the absolute limits and thus contains artificial limits (the Cell/some of the bars) based on and constricted by those absolutes.

Again, it's not a perfect metaphor, but it's pretty decent in its overview when trying to relate these concepts of physical and social limitations to others.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If that's the case, I'm damned glad to be a prisoner? I mean, without being stuck in Prison, I apparently would have no experiences whatsoever... I'd be a collection of various chemical compounds, unable to process any external stimuli.

YAY PRISON

[AFK]

If that's the case, I'm damned glad to be a prisoner? I mean, without being stuck in Prison, I apparently would have no experiences whatsoever... I'd be a collection of various chemical compounds, unable to process any external stimuli.

YAY PRISON

Maybe there is a Black Iron Primordial Soup.   

[P3nT4gR4m]

If that's the case, I'm damned glad to be a prisoner? I mean, without being stuck in Prison, I apparently would have no experiences whatsoever... I'd be a collection of various chemical compounds, unable to process any external stimuli.

YAY PRISON

I don't suppose you caught the latest ep of BSG the other night?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If that's the case, I'm damned glad to be a prisoner? I mean, without being stuck in Prison, I apparently would have no experiences whatsoever... I'd be a collection of various chemical compounds, unable to process any external stimuli.

YAY PRISON

I don't suppose you caught the latest ep of BSG the other night?

I dunno what BSG is...

[Telarus]

to RWHN and That One Guy. I now have what I need to answer n00b questions about the BIP in a suitably Zenarchistic Guru fashion.

a) When they ask about their Cell, I can spin lovely words about social conditioning, Reality Grids, the Thinker and the Prover, etc, etc.

b) when they ask about the walls of the over-arching Prison, I get to hit them with a stick.

[That One Guy]

to WEHN and That One Guy. I now have what I need to answer n00b questions about the BIP in a suitably Zenarchistic Guru fashion.

a) When they ask about their Cell, I can spin lovely words about social conditioning, Reality Grids, the Thinker and the Prover, etc, etc.

b) when they ask about the walls of the over-arching Prison, I get to hit them with a stick.

It's win-win, really 

[Dead Kennedy]

You CAN'T escape the prison.

Sure you can.  I do it all the time.  I have a guest pass.

The prison represents all that we can experience as humans.  Humans, because of the limitations of their brain, among other things, can only actually gain experience from a certain percentage of the larger universe or Reality.  As such, it is physically and mentally impossible for us to ever escape the prison.  That's why the cells are important.  We can't escape the prison but we can move from one cell to another. 

You seem to have completely misunderstood the concept of the Black Iron Prison.

The Prison does not represent "all that we can experience as humans."  That would make it a useless metaphor.   The Prison metaphor represents the socially constructed simulacra of reality that limits our experience of reality.

[AFK]

You CAN'T escape the prison.

Sure you can.  I do it all the time.  I have a guest pass.

No, to escape the Prison would be to escape humanity.  Or are you now claiming that not only are you the smartest but you are also immortal? 

The prison represents all that we can experience as humans.  Humans, because of the limitations of their brain, among other things, can only actually gain experience from a certain percentage of the larger universe or Reality.  As such, it is physically and mentally impossible for us to ever escape the prison.  That's why the cells are important.  We can't escape the prison but we can move from one cell to another. 

You seem to have completely misunderstood the concept of the Black Iron Prison.

The Prison does not represent "all that we can experience as humans."  That would make it a useless metaphor.   The Prison metaphor represents the socially constructed simulacra of reality that limits our experience of reality.

I think you have a different concept of the BIP.  Perhaps yours is more closely aligned with Dick, from whom we borrowed the label.  But the model we constructed is different than his and I suggest you might want to read up on some of the older threads in this subforum so that you have a clearer understanding of what the PD.COM model of BIP represents. 

[P3nT4gR4m]

If that's the case, I'm damned glad to be a prisoner? I mean, without being stuck in Prison, I apparently would have no experiences whatsoever... I'd be a collection of various chemical compounds, unable to process any external stimuli.

YAY PRISON

I don't suppose you caught the latest ep of BSG the other night?

I dunno what BSG is...

WAYSA!!! 

BattleStar Galactica. Reason I asked is because there was a brilliant conversation between two of the characters that was so BIP-themed it could have been ripped off. If you can be arsed looking for the torrent s04ep15 is what you're after. around 21 mins in.

[That One Guy]

I think we defined our terms adequately in the previous posts in this thread and in other places in this forum and site. If you choose to ignore those definitions it will prevent useful communication and discussion in relation to the metaphor we are using.

If you use different terms or definitions from those outlined above, or feel the metaphor is inaccurate based on the definitions listed in prior posts (which I've included again below), then by all means define your terms or base your arguments on the definitions commonly agreed upon in this thread. I'd be interested in hearing it. Otherwise I await discussion of this topic in relation to the definitions I've used above:

BIP - the broad concept that we are limited by a series of physical and social limitations in how we perceive and interact with ourselves and others.
Cells or Bars - the social limitations we place within the broader framework of the BIP
Prison Walls - the physical limitations that serve as further limiters for the Cells within the broader BIP