The Black Iron DUNGEON vs the Black Iron PRISON

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I'm not sure which book it is specifically, having read the majority of them in one stretch ten years ago, but I just called Chuck and he seems to think that RAW discusses it in-depth in either Coincidance or The New Inquistion.  I'm thinking it's more likely the latter, since TNI is really all about the limitations of reality tunnels.

That would make sense, since those two are ones I haven't read. I'll see what I can do about managing to find and grab those.

[Dead Kennedy]

You appear to be using the term Black Iron Prison to refer to a thing that:

1) Society does not put you in.
2) You cannot escape from.
3) It does not necessarily suck being there.

1) Society in part, informs where you are in the Prison.  What cell you occupy.  Another informant would be the physiological.  Our existence depends heavily upon nature AND nurture. 
2) No, you cannot escape it because you cannot escape your biology.  You cannot escape your human limitations.  That's why the "prison" part of the metaphor is important.  Not because of some dark connotations, but because it denotes the fact that you cannot transcend the limitations inherent in being a part of the human race.  HOWEVER, the caveat is that the Prison walls are amorphous.  Just when we think we've discovered all we can discover, we feel along and find that at some points, the walls go back further than we had anticipated.  There is more territory to explore, more paths to take.
3) Correct.  It might suck, it might not.  It depends on your outlook and how you react to the bars in your cell.  But, you have the freedom of movement to explore more of the Prison if you don't like where you are.  Find another cell, explore more of the territory.

So you're using the metaphor of a prison to describe something that is nothing at all like a prison.

Like this statement doesn't make sense to me: "No, you cannot escape it because you cannot escape your biology.  You cannot escape your human limitations.  That's why the "prison" part of the metaphor is important."

The prison part of the metaphor doesn't seem important, it seems misleading.  You can escape prison.  That's a fundamental part of my understanding of prisons, and I suspect most people's understanding of prisons.   They are escapable.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Alright, I don't really care to read the last few pages, because I have a bone to pick.

The Black Iron Prison does NOT have Cartesian Dualism built into it. The mind and body are not separated into Prisoner (mind) and Prison Cell (body), because a huge component of the prison cell is the mind itself. I would personally go so far as to say that the mental component of the prison cell is the one many of us are most interested in.

You're so not actually listening to what I'm saying.

I know that the concept of the Alt. Black Iron Prison (the territory) is not Cartesian in nature.  The problem is that the metaphor of a prison and the metaphor of a prison cell both imply a prisoner, and thus introduce Cartesianism.

The Cartesianism isn't in the territory, it's in the map of the territory.

Sorry, who's not listening?

The mind and body are not separated into Prisoner (mind) and Prison Cell (body), because a huge component of the prison cell is the mind itself.

Sure, there's a prisoner and a prison. However, they are NOT metaphors for mind and body, or at least not exclusively. The prisoner may be representative of the mind, but a major part of the prison itself is also representative of the mind.

Furthermore, it is very strongly implied that our personalities and interactions with the world around us depend heavily on how we are able to perceive the world though the bars. So it is pretty clear that the mind (soul, self, ego, whatever the fuck) is intrinsically connected to the physical body (which also forms part of the Cell), not a separate entity.

And the metaphor implies the exact opposite.

If you want to take the name of it literally, which is not how it's intended.

The actual metaphor, if you're willing to take it beyond the immediate assumption that Prisoner=Mind and Prison=Body, clearly suggests that our minds are directly tied to both physical and self-imposed psychological limits.

[LMNO]

DK, just to clarify, "no" was in reference to your assumption that we were referring to the PKD BIP.

So, who was the other Discordian to steal it?

[Precious Moments Zalgo]

This is one of the reason I loathe Cartesian metaphors.  When we think in terms of "the rider on the horse" or "the driver of the vehicle" -- or even "the prisoner in the dungeon" -- we distance ourselves from the fact that often the horse is riding us, and the car is driving were it wants to go.  This is where the EGO gets chumped by instinct and reaction, and that part of us we think of as "I" turns out to be the part that isn't in charge.

I agree with this.  Cartesian metaphors just aren't a peeve to me.

The problem with metaphors is that any metaphor can be taken too far.  While it feels natural for me to view my neural correlates of consciousness as a driver with the rest of my body being a vehicle, I can easily see where the metaphor breaks down.  Every time I react before I have a chance to think, I know that my NCC is not totally in charge.  Every time I catch myself just going through the motions without really thinking about what I'm doing, I know that my NCC is not totally in charge.  Every time I react emotionally, I know that my NCC is not totally in charge.

I even don't believe that it's possible to ever act solely on conscious processes.  By the time my NCC gets around to assessing a situation, the decision-making process has already been biased by input from my lizard-brain in the form of a shift in the balance of my brain chemistry.  The best that I can do is recognize this for what it is, and attempt to correct for it if necessary.

None of this means that Cartesian metaphors are useless.  It only means that like all metaphors, there are situations where they can be useful, and other situations where they are not useful.

I think your example of the rider on the horse is a little closer to reality than the standard idea of Cartesian duality, IF the horse is wild and you don't really control it.  The horse has a mind of its own, and the best you can do is pull really hard on the reigns and hope it moves in the direction you want it to.

Of course, this is way off topic, because as Cainad said, BIP is not a Cartesian metaphor.

[AFK]

You appear to be using the term Black Iron Prison to refer to a thing that:

1) Society does not put you in.
2) You cannot escape from.
3) It does not necessarily suck being there.

1) Society in part, informs where you are in the Prison.  What cell you occupy.  Another informant would be the physiological.  Our existence depends heavily upon nature AND nurture. 
2) No, you cannot escape it because you cannot escape your biology.  You cannot escape your human limitations.  That's why the "prison" part of the metaphor is important.  Not because of some dark connotations, but because it denotes the fact that you cannot transcend the limitations inherent in being a part of the human race.  HOWEVER, the caveat is that the Prison walls are amorphous.  Just when we think we've discovered all we can discover, we feel along and find that at some points, the walls go back further than we had anticipated.  There is more territory to explore, more paths to take.
3) Correct.  It might suck, it might not.  It depends on your outlook and how you react to the bars in your cell.  But, you have the freedom of movement to explore more of the Prison if you don't like where you are.  Find another cell, explore more of the territory.

So you're using the metaphor of a prison to describe something that is nothing at all like a prison.

Like this statement doesn't make sense to me: "No, you cannot escape it because you cannot escape your biology.  You cannot escape your human limitations.  That's why the "prison" part of the metaphor is important."

The prison part of the metaphor doesn't seem important, it seems misleading.  You can escape prison.  That's a fundamental part of my understanding of prisons, and I suspect most people's understanding of prisons.   They are escapable.

Some prisons are escapable, those poorly maintained and poorly staffed.  I think it is pretty clear the intent of the metaphor is to be based upon the intended function and structure of a prison.  It IS a metaphor after all.  Not literal.  

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

You can escape prison.  That's a fundamental part of my understanding of prisons, and I suspect most people's understanding of prisons.   They are escapable.

It's not a fundamental part of my understanding of prisons. Prisons may be escapable, but they aren't SUPPOSED to be escapable. That sort of defeats the point of having a prison, if they are designed with the intent of making something that is possible to escape from but simply challenging. I mean, sure, you'll never make a prison that's 100% inescapable, but designing it to be escapable is like designing a computer with the 'feature' of violently exploding every time a program seg faults: it's not nice, and it's not useful, and while certainly sometimes some computers may eventually violently explode during a seg fault some time in the future, to assume this will always be the case while designing such a machine is to change it from an occasional event to a predictable but highly common one.

I don't think the BIP is modeled after a 'real', physical prison. I think the BIP is modeled after the concept of a prison *as a prison is intended*.

Plus, with the BIP, it's rather confusing what it is to 'escape' -- some people say you can't escape but can only remodel, and some people say you can escape but you end up getting stuck back in whenever you stop paying attention. Either way, both situations correspond to the same thing. The BIP is a pretty good model for opening one's mind, bugs and all, and if I come up with a better one I'll let you guys know.

[Phineas T. Poxwattle]

there are many qualities of a physical prison that our metaphorical prison does not possess. Like being federally funded, and functioning as an arm of the judicial system. I think focusing on the similarities between a real-life prison and our nervous systems is a red herring - no metaphor is meant to be totally comprehensive.


To me, (and I know I'm repeating what's been said to some extent) a lot of the prison metaphor speaks to the limitations and constraints on our free will (that elusive chimera!). The word "Free Will" carries this connotation that "you can do anything you want." Yes, but it's the "anything you want" that's the tricky part. For example, I could murder my boss, but it's not an option I'm capable of pursuing - I simply don't have the motivation. Understanding that there are such constraints on my decision making processes gives me a sort of power which I didn't have when I wasn't aware of it. This gives me some more maneuverability within the prison, but I still can't get outside of certain constraints.

The prison metaphor underscores that there are certain things that are completely outside of my abilities. (and I don't mean physical restrictions, like obviously I can't fly or whatever) No matter how hard I flex my free will, I just can't bring myself to punch my girlfriend in the face, fuck my mom, or buy a pick-up truck.

I also use the prison metaphor to speak about certain elements of my day-to-day reality which become imprisoning despite the fact that I selected them. I live in the ghetto - but yo, I'm the one that picked my apartment. I watch the Colbert Report every goddamn night, mostly out of habit. These are constraints on my behavior. They're constraints I put there, and theoretically ones I can control. But only if I really want to, and that's the rub.



oops ran out of time, gotta catch a train! 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Personally, based on my experiences and current level of knowledge and ignorance; I think that there are several issues with the BiP as a model and I find it somewhat annoying that anytime someone brings those issue up its responded to with "You don't understand". If multiple people say "Wow, this doesn't seem to depict the territory very well..." then there might be some issues with the map.

I think DK has made some extremely well thought out comments in this thread.

[Template]

I SEE DISCUSSION OF HOW THE PRISON IS OR IS NOT ESCAPABLE.


I ALREADY SOLVED THAT FOR YOU.


PUT THE PRISON IN A DESERT.


IT EVEN IMPROVES THE METAPHOR.

[fomenter]

the BIP  has always been a bit contentious around here and i haven't spent much time commenting on it. my first impression was its dark and the metaphor is clunky. my opinion of it hasn't changed in spite of a lot of valiant effort on the part of those working on it.

i have put in no effort so this may be easier for me to say, but why not scrap it and start over? there has been talk of using a vehicle metaphor that seems to work well in the model agnostic model. that car won't float that boat won't fly you can change the vehicle to suite the territory you travel but there are limitations inherent to all vehicles and no travel at all  is possible without a vehicle.

it might be the best choice to move on, it will create new projects and new work to revamp old ones but i think the successes of the BIP and the enthusiasm it generated might indicate this is a worthwhile direction to go in....   

[That One Guy]

The BIP is only one metaphor of many, and it's not by any means the only one that applies to this set of circumstances. This board has used it as a starting point - and it's obviously effective at that as it generates such a high level of discussion and creativity concerning both its meaning and its applicability. It has adapted over time so far and will continue to adapt as this thread shows. The perception of how accurate a given metaphor is is a personal thing. The BIP metaphor we're fleshing out here is one of many, and one that seems to resonate with many people on this board. That doesn't mean any other personal perception of it is wrong - it just makes it less applicable or more applicable to a given individual.

If anyone has an alternate metaphor, by all means share - write it up, start a thread discussing it and lets get going! People have certainly done it before around here and hopefully will continue to do so.  The BIP metaphor just has a head-start in the discussion, since it's been kicked around for a couple of years now. That doesn't implicitly make it better or worse, just more collectively fleshed out and defined. If another metaphor has the same kind of resonance, hopefully we can be talking about both if not many more as well in a couple more years 

[fomenter]

The BIP is only one metaphor of many, and it's not by any means the only one that applies to this set of circumstances. This board has used it as a starting point - and it's obviously effective at that as it generates such a high level of discussion and creativity concerning both its meaning and its applicability. It has adapted over time so far and will continue to adapt as this thread shows. The perception of how accurate a given metaphor is is a personal thing. The BIP metaphor we're fleshing out here is one of many, and one that seems to resonate with many people on this board. That doesn't mean any other personal perception of it is wrong - it just makes it less applicable or more applicable to a given individual.

If anyone has an alternate metaphor, by all means share - write it up, start a thread discussing it and lets get going! People have certainly done it before around here and hopefully will continue to do so.  The BIP metaphor just has a head-start in the discussion, since it's been kicked around for a couple of years now. That doesn't implicitly make it better or worse, just more collectively fleshed out and defined. If another metaphor has the same kind of resonance, hopefully we can be talking about both if not many more as well in a couple more years 

I would hesitate to give up on the BIP metaphor if it can be made to work. Becoming "the tired old discordians" that have to endlessly explain the metaphor to every one that stumbles across it, i think would be a bad thing. I also would not give up on it if it is still generating a lot of enthusiasm and creativity.

for new and more flexible ones i threw out the vehicle as an example  because it has come up in the BIP discussions a few times, it is not my idea and 
i don't have it fully fleshed out in my mind so starting a thread on it i will leave to the originator...

i did propose an erector-set prison idea at one point, the advantage being it can be reconfigured, it gives a game toy aspect to the metaphor and still keeps the prison "limitations" part. the downside which i also pointed out at the time is that only old farts know what an erector set is... probably a big part of the reason the idea didn't catch on..i did think it helped with making the metaphor both more upbeat and self explanatory...

[Dead Kennedy]

Sorry, who's not listening?

You are not listening to what I'm saying at all.  Your responses are complete non-sequitors.  You (and LHNO) seem to be operating on an Understand-Agree fallacy. You think because I don't agree with your position I don't understand it.  That's not the case.

And the metaphor implies the exact opposite.

If you want to take the name of it literally, which is not how it's intended.

The actual metaphor, if you're willing to take it beyond the immediate assumption that Prisoner=Mind and Prison=Body, clearly suggests that our minds are directly tied to both physical and self-imposed psychological limits.[/quote]

The metaphor implies the exact opposite if you take it as a metaphor.

No offense, but you seem to not understand the point of a metaphor.  A metaphor is supposed to help us understand a more difficult concept.  A metaphor assumes common knowledge of the thing being used as a metaphor.  It uses the metaphor as a map to the more complicated territory.  More to the point, it uses the immediate assumptions that the metaphor evokes to help you understand the territory -- it uses the familiar to explain the unfamiliar.

But all of the immediate assumptions one makes about a prison -- that society puts you there, that it is unpleasant, that you can escape, that there are guards and wardens, that there are other inmates, that people will try to put you back in if they realize you've escaped, etc. -- turn out to be false.

It seems to me that I have to understand the territory very well in order to understand the map.  That's ass-backwards!  Yet this is exactly what is implied by LMNO's request to read everything first.  He seems to be saying 'The map will make sense once you understand the territory.'  But if I understand the territory, what need do I have for the map?  The map is supposed to be helping me understand the territory.

I SEE DISCUSSION OF HOW THE PRISON IS OR IS NOT ESCAPABLE.

I ALREADY SOLVED THAT FOR YOU.

PUT THE PRISON IN A DESERT.

IT EVEN IMPROVES THE METAPHOR.

Actually it doesn't improve the metaphor, nor is it accurate.

You want a metaphor for what is outside the Black Iron Prison?  The Christians have a great one:  The Garden of Eden.  Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You explores this idea in great detail.  Too Christiany for your tastes?  Then I suggest reading Hakim Bey's TAZ: Temporary Autonomous Zone.  Maybe outside the Prison is the Pirate Utopia.

A desert is a poor metaphor, because the only meaningful reason to even discuss the Black Iron Prison is to encourage other people (or yourself) to attempt a jail break.  If I tell you the only thing outside the prison is a desert, is that going to inspire you to make a break for it?  Or is the takeaway message going to be "Out of the frying pan, into the fire."

Personally, based on my experiences and current level of knowledge and ignorance; I think that there are several issues with the BiP as a model and I find it somewhat annoying that anytime someone brings those issue up its responded to with "You don't understand". If multiple people say "Wow, this doesn't seem to depict the territory very well..." then there might be some issues with the map.

Exactly.

I think DK has made some extremely well thought out comments in this thread.

Thank you.

[Phineas T. Poxwattle]

History is repeating itself a bit, so I'm gonna put on my archive archaeologist hat for a second:



SO...

this isn't the first time we've discussed all this jazz.

Here's LMNO's thread "renaming challenge"

Ok, the fact that "Black Iron Prison" is a PKD ripoff has come up a few times, so I hereby announce a challenge:


Please come up with a new name for the BIP metaphor.  Hopefully, one that can still use the original essays with only minor edits.



Go.

and the Compromise/Collaboration thread...

Ok, it has pretty much been agreed upon that we will never all agree upon the use of BIP as a name or metaphor.  Some like it, some don't.

However, I don't hear anyone saying anything against the contents of what the metaphor stands for.

So, as I posted before, but got buried, here's what we do.

If you don't like the BIP metaphor, write your own metaphor.  That's right, write an essay on what you thing best captures what we're trying to say.  Whether it's the Golden Sphere of Opportunity, The Dream in a Dream, or Happy Funtime Dachau, write it down.

Then, we'll gather all those together, and put out a pdf called "7 Ideas of One Thing", or however many essays we get.  I'm already writing a new BIP essay.



Ok, get to it.  Put money where your mouths are.

There's some good discussion in both of those threads!

I would hesitate to give up on the BIP metaphor if it can be made to work.

I'm not going to go thread mining to dig up a citation, but history has shown that:

-every so often, argumentitive people point at a few aesthetic weaknesses with this one particular metaphor we're talking about.
-with slightly more frequency, people are really excited about it. Many people report that it's been helpful in conceptualizing how to rearrange their lives to their taste
-if we're lucky, this attention spins into a flurry of new ideas or progress.
-more often, it results in sort of trailing off while someone tries to figure out how to reinvent the wheel. To my memory there have been three or four people who were working on a new edition of the BIP pamphlet and sort of trailed off. I suspect because they're trying to compromise between all the good and bad stuff that's being said, and crystalize it into something readable. Harder than it sounds!

this idea, of self-liberation from self-imposed limits, is nothing new. People have been writing about it for zillions of years. All we claim any ownership of is the particular packaging of the metaphor, and the many many documents we've written trying to describe it. We disagree about nearly everything else, but ultimately, that's healthy for the ecosystem of ideas.

IMHO the coolest thing about the BIP memeplex (in which I'm including shrapnel, The Machine, all that other made-up jargon stuff we like talking about) it that it's truly community property. So I would be hesitant to declare it "dead" or say that it "doesn't work" -- because it's doing it's job, maybe in more ways than are apparent on the surface.