The Black Iron DUNGEON vs the Black Iron PRISON

[fomenter]

I would hesitate to give up on the BIP metaphor if it can be made to work.

my bad on that one, especially since it works for me in some respects  i think i failed to properly connect it to the idea that followed, trying to say, made to work better, in that it doesn't need to be explained as much as some of the above posts would suggest or as often as the topic coming up would suggest..


both of which may not happen as often over all, my view of the reactions are limited..

[LMNO]

DK, I'm confused.

If I were to state that I knew everything about the ideas behind Plato's Republic, even though I never read it, you'd claim I was an idiot. And if I started rambling on about a tangent that had nothing to do with Plato, you'd probably suggest I read the guy before moving on.

So I find it odd that you've come to a conclusion about our BIP idea, without even actually reading our ideas on it.

From what I recall from my college philosophy courses, it took pages and pages of set-up to come to a simple concluding sentence. Why are you so unwilling to put in a similar effort here, especially when we have posted a simple link to the available writings?

[Dead Kennedy]

there are many qualities of a physical prison that our metaphorical prison does not possess. Like being federally funded, and functioning as an arm of the judicial system. I think focusing on the similarities between a real-life prison and our nervous systems is a red herring - no metaphor is meant to be totally comprehensive.

True, but a metaphor is meant to be at least minimally comprehensive, and the strength/utility of a metaphor is directly proportional to the number of points of similarity between the metaphor and the concept explained by the metaphor.  

If there are no similarities at all, then what is the point of using a metaphor at all?  How does it help to understand territory if the map has no relationship to the territory?

Here's the question:  What does the metaphor of prison do to help explain the concept that the Alt. Black Iron Prison model refers to that any other structure wouldn't do?

Why is prison a better metaphor for the concept referred to than any other?

For example, the metaphor of prison and cell could be replaced with a metaphor of mansion and room, or cave system and cavern (drawing a conceptual link to Plato's Allegory of the Cave).

Why shouldn't it be replaced?  Why is the metaphor of prison and cell more accurate than the metaphor of mansion and room?

To me, (and I know I'm repeating what's been said to some extent) a lot of the prison metaphor speaks to the limitations and constraints on our free will (that elusive chimera!). The word "Free Will" carries this connotation that "you can do anything you want." Yes, but it's the "anything you want" that's the tricky part. For example, I could murder my boss, but it's not an option I'm capable of pursuing - I simply don't have the motivation. Understanding that there are such constraints on my decision making processes gives me a sort of power which I didn't have when I wasn't aware of it. This gives me some more maneuverability within the prison, but I still can't get outside of certain constraints.

Your example doesn't seem to support your argument.

Murdering your boss is an option you are capable of pursuing.  That you don't have a motive to kill your boss is not a limitation (re: this post on limitations for expanded discussion of this point).  You just don't want to do it.

Not wanting to do something is not the same thing as not being capable of doing something.  This is an attitudinal limitation, so it's a false limitation.  You just need to shift your attitude.  Snort PCP and spend twenty minutes pacing in darkness dwelling on every single annoying habit you boss has, and you can generate the motivation to kill him.

Not that you should do that.  I can't endorse killing people just to prove you can.

The prison metaphor underscores that there are certain things that are completely outside of my abilities. (and I don't mean physical restrictions, like obviously I can't fly or whatever) No matter how hard I flex my free will, I just can't bring myself to punch my girlfriend in the face, fuck my mom, or buy a pick-up truck.

Those are all false limitations.  You can totally bring yourself to do those things.  It would just take a lot of work, and you can't see any purpose to doing that work.  Neither can I.

I also use the prison metaphor to speak about certain elements of my day-to-day reality which become imprisoning despite the fact that I selected them. I live in the ghetto - but yo, I'm the one that picked my apartment. I watch the Colbert Report every goddamn night, mostly out of habit. These are constraints on my behavior. They're constraints I put there, and theoretically ones I can control. But only if I really want to, and that's the rub.

It seems to me you're using the prison metaphor to justify putting up with things you don't like.  Constraints you put on your own behavior are not actually constraints.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=19810.0

Be useful and flamecritique this.

[Phineas T. Poxwattle]

that stuff you said, like "Those are all false limitations.  You can totally bring yourself to do those things.  It would just take a lot of work, and you can't see any purpose to doing that work." is precisely what I'm talking about with the black iron prison metaphor. Constaints you set for yourself are real constraints until you realize they are trapping you in some way and decide to change them.

If there are no similarities at all, then what is the point of using a metaphor at all?  How does it help to understand territory if the map has no relationship to the territory?

I disagree with that, that there's no similarities between a prison and the "escape the traps you set for yourself" notion. I think it works. It's not a perfect fit, but I feel it describes the shape of the thing pretty well.

Here's the question:  What does the metaphor of prison do to help explain the concept that the Alt. Black Iron Prison model refers to that any other structure wouldn't do?

yeah, I wonder about that. I've written on that, here (page 12) is my take on the metaphor. I don't claim to have the best description of the self-liberation idea, but it works for my life.

[LMNO]

DK, please compare your idea of "false limitation" with the RAW and Leary 8-circuit structure. I'd like to see how you delineate behaviors.

[Dead Kennedy]

DK, I'm confused.

Okay.  I will try to unconfuse you.  Bear with me.

If I were to state that I knew everything about the ideas behind Plato's Republic, even though I never read it, you'd claim I was an idiot. And if I started rambling on about a tangent that had nothing to do with Plato, you'd probably suggest I read the guy before moving on.

Yes.  This is not an accurate analogy however, because I'm not claiming that I know everything about the ideas behind Black Iron Prison.  I'm not claiming that at all, and I don't think I'm "rambling on about a tangent that had nothing to do with" Black Iron Prison.  Neither does Ratatosk, which you might want to take into consideration.  

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have read Black Iron Prison and the ideas presented there are pretty familiar.  It's also not that hard to figure out what you guys are getting on about from your comments.

I don't have to know anything about your concepts to recognize that my assumptions about prisons -- which I think are pretty commonplace, conventional assumptions -- are not helping me understand them.  In fact, the LESS I know about your ideas, the easier it is to notice that the prison metaphor is confusing the issue rather than illuminating it.

So I find it odd that you've come to a conclusion about our BIP idea, without even actually reading our ideas on it.

I find it odd that you think I've come to a conclusion about your BIP idea, when so far I've been exclusively discussing the relationship of the metaphor of a prison to the idea you are using the metaphor to explicate.

From what I recall from my college philosophy courses, it took pages and pages of set-up to come to a simple concluding sentence. Why are you so unwilling to put in a similar effort here, especially when we have posted a simple link to the available writings?

You are completely misunderstanding my criticism.

[LMNO]

Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they "know about caves" rather than reading the text?

[Template]

I SEE DISCUSSION OF HOW THE PRISON IS OR IS NOT ESCAPABLE.

I ALREADY SOLVED THAT FOR YOU.

PUT THE PRISON IN A DESERT.

IT EVEN IMPROVES THE METAPHOR.

Actually it doesn't improve the metaphor, nor is it accurate.

You want a metaphor for what is outside the Black Iron Prison?  The Christians have a great one:  The Garden of Eden.  Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You explores this idea in great detail.  Too Christiany for your tastes?  Then I suggest reading Hakim Bey's TAZ: Temporary Autonomous Zone.  Maybe outside the Prison is the Pirate Utopia.

A desert is a poor metaphor, because the only meaningful reason to even discuss the Black Iron Prison is to encourage other people (or yourself) to attempt a jail break.  If I tell you the only thing outside the prison is a desert, is that going to inspire you to make a break for it?  Or is the takeaway message going to be "Out of the frying pan, into the fire."

http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Bare_Minimum_BIP_%28a_SSOOKN_product%29
See 7 (b), its corrollary, and 8.  I was surprised at first too, but doing a "Jail Break" seem to mean breaking the jail, in the sense of "to pieces."  And then re-assembling said pieces into new shapes.

Also, in the Desert, you face yourself.  You might even forget your name.  I elsewhere suggested there were oases.  Stop pretending you're an expert.

[LMNO]

Actually, you don't need a metaphor to what's outside the BIP.

There's a precise answer: the entire, unfiltered, non-categorized, unfiltered Chaos of the Universe.

Of course, you'd know this if you, you know, read the material.

[Dead Kennedy]

DK, please compare your idea of "false limitation" with the RAW and Leary 8-circuit structure. I'd like to see how you delineate behaviors.

Maybe later.  I already want to write that essay on the point of the Principia you requested earlier, and I'll only accept so much homework.  

[/quote]

Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they "know about caves" rather than reading the text?

Nobody, but Plato's Cave doesn't challenge one's assumptions about caves.  It uses those assumptions to strengthen its own argument.  That's one of the reasons its such a famous metaphor.  It's very powerful.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they "know about caves" rather than reading the text?

Nobody, but Plato's Cave doesn't challenge one's assumptions about caves.  It uses those assumptions to strengthen its own argument.  That's one of the reasons its such a famous metaphor.  It's very powerful.

[Dead Kennedy]

Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they "know about caves" rather than reading the text?

Nobody, but Plato's Cave doesn't challenge one's assumptions about caves.  It uses those assumptions to strengthen its own argument.  That's one of the reasons its such a famous metaphor.  It's very powerful.

I'll bet money you can't find one.  That meets my definition of nobody.

[Cainad (dec.)]

I'll bet money you can't find one.  That meets my definition of nobody.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=4486.msg165212#msg165212

Do never test the search function. It is wise and terrible.

[AFK]

The other thing to remember with the BIP is that it isn't a model in isolation.  It isn't a model that explains everything.  The Shrapnel model we developed works in concert with the BIP.  And I think helps strengthen it.  The BIP is the landscape.  Shrapnel describes how we move along that landscape.  We have our surroundings, we have the bars that impact who we are and how we are, but it's the Shrapnel that impacts how we react and where we go. 

The concept I've articulated regarding the BIP, Shrapnel, and Paths all work pretty well to me.  I think, together, they do a good job of illustrating the how's and why's of our existence in the time allotted to us.  I also know these concepts have been brewing for quite a well and have a mountain of material behind them.

I don't see much point in discussing these concepts with someone who refuses to become familiar with the background of these ideas, because I think that materials IS very important.  The BIP that we've defined is way more than just the pamphlet.  The pamphlet was just a glint of the model we constructed.  So anyway, I understand some of you are uncomfortable with it, and I encourage you to search for whatever makes more sense to you.