The Black Iron DUNGEON vs the Black Iron PRISON

[Dead Kennedy]

I'll bet money you can't find one.  That meets my definition of nobody.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=4486.msg165212#msg165212

Do never test the search function. It is wise and terrible.

I was starring at that for the longest time, trying to figure out why you posted it, and I looked back a few posts and realized we're talking right passed each other.

When LMNO said "Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they 'know about caves' rather than reading the text?" I didn't catch his meaning.

He meant "How many people have deluded themselves into thinking they understand the Allegory of the Cave because they know about caves, even though they haven't read the book."

I thought he meant "How many people have failed to understand the Allergory of the Cave after reading it because their knowledge of caves caused them to misunderstand what Plato was communicating."

LMNO seems to be convinced I have not read Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisted, but I've read it three times now (just again this night), and I still think the book just "doesn't get it."  But that's because that book is not where I was first exposed to the metaphor of the Black Iron Prison.  That would be RAW, I'm also certain its in The New Inquistion.

So the Alt. BIP (that's yours, as it is chronologically later in development) is fighting it out with the RAW BIP in my head.  And the thing I keep noticing is that the use of a prison as a metaphor makes great sense in RAW BIP model, and very little in the Alt. BIP.

[LMNO]

I think your confusion stems from the fact that for us, the BIP is an ongoing process.  The original pamphlet was hastily thrown together because we were caught up in an exciting idea.  The wiki is the crucible where we refine, clarify, and expand on the idea.

So, because you haven't followed our advice, you're basically trying to critique the New Testament after only reading 1 Thessalonians.

[LMNO]

So you're using the metaphor of a cave to describe something that is nothing at all like a cave.

The cave part of the metaphor doesn't seem important, it seems misleading.  You can turn around in a cave, look at the fire, grab the ideal object, and run out.  That's a fundamental part of my understanding of caves, and I suspect most people's understanding of caves.  

Just so you see where I was going with that.

[AFK]

I'll bet money you can't find one.  That meets my definition of nobody.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=4486.msg165212#msg165212

Do never test the search function. It is wise and terrible.

I was starring at that for the longest time, trying to figure out why you posted it, and I looked back a few posts and realized we're talking right passed each other.

When LMNO said "Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they 'know about caves' rather than reading the text?" I didn't catch his meaning.

He meant "How many people have deluded themselves into thinking they understand the Allegory of the Cave because they know about caves, even though they haven't read the book."

I thought he meant "How many people have failed to understand the Allergory of the Cave after reading it because their knowledge of caves caused them to misunderstand what Plato was communicating."

LMNO seems to be convinced I have not read Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisted, but I've read it three times now (just again this night), and I still think the book just "doesn't get it."  But that's because that book is not where I was first exposed to the metaphor of the Black Iron Prison.  That would be RAW, I'm also certain its in The New Inquistion.

So the Alt. BIP (that's yours, as it is chronologically later in development) is fighting it out with the RAW BIP in my head.  And the thing I keep noticing is that the use of a prison as a metaphor makes great sense in RAW BIP model, and very little in the Alt. BIP.

LMNO just said it, but I will reiterate.

You need to get it through your thick skull that The Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited is not the sole piece of material devoted to our BIP model.  There are many, many threads that built up to it and that have built onto it.  Go to the wiki  www.blackironprison.com  Go to the library where you will see many pieces related to and building on the BIP metaphor. 

We've also built other models that feed into the BIP model.  The Shrapnel concept is one.  Paths is another.  What you are doing is tantamount to critiquing the entirety of the Star War universe after just watching "A New Hope".  Honestly, you would make a very poor anthropologist. 

[Cainad (dec.)]

So the Alt. BIP (that's yours, as it is chronologically later in development) is fighting it out with the RAW BIP in my head.  And the thing I keep noticing is that the use of a prison as a metaphor makes great sense in RAW BIP model, and very little in the Alt. BIP.

Your problem.

It's certainly not mine.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I'll bet money you can't find one.  That meets my definition of nobody.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=4486.msg165212#msg165212

Do never test the search function. It is wise and terrible.

I was starring at that for the longest time, trying to figure out why you posted it, and I looked back a few posts and realized we're talking right passed each other.

When LMNO said "Ok, how many people have misunderstood Plato's Cave because they 'know about caves' rather than reading the text?" I didn't catch his meaning.

He meant "How many people have deluded themselves into thinking they understand the Allegory of the Cave because they know about caves, even though they haven't read the book."

I thought he meant "How many people have failed to understand the Allergory of the Cave after reading it because their knowledge of caves caused them to misunderstand what Plato was communicating."

LMNO seems to be convinced I have not read Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisted, but I've read it three times now (just again this night), and I still think the book just "doesn't get it."  But that's because that book is not where I was first exposed to the metaphor of the Black Iron Prison.  That would be RAW, I'm also certain its in The New Inquistion.

So the Alt. BIP (that's yours, as it is chronologically later in development) is fighting it out with the RAW BIP in my head.  And the thing I keep noticing is that the use of a prison as a metaphor makes great sense in RAW BIP model, and very little in the Alt. BIP.

LMNO just said it, but I will reiterate.

You need to get it through your thick skull that The Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited is not the sole piece of material devoted to our BIP model.  There are many, many threads that built up to it and that have built onto it.  Go to the wiki  www.blackironprison.com  Go to the library where you will see many pieces related to and building on the BIP metaphor. 

We've also built other models that feed into the BIP model.  The Shrapnel concept is one.  Paths is another.  What you are doing is tantamount to critiquing the entirety of the Star War universe after just watching "A New Hope".  Honestly, you would make a very poor anthropologist. 

Is the 'rut' model still popular?

[AFK]

I think the "rut" model came up during one of my vacations from PD.COM, so I'm not the best person to comment on that. 

[LMNO]

Would that be similar to the billiard table with peaks and valleys?

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Would that be similar to the billiard table with peaks and valleys?

But self-perpetuating. The idea of a rut is that it's a path that you are more likely to follow the more you follow it.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

While we certianly do have several different metaphors which all have valueable sutff to say.... I don't think that they mollify or negate the issues DK pointed to with the BiP. That is, we've expanded into different models, but the BiP model still seems pretty... loose(?)...

I put out a call several weeks ago, perhaps I shall do it again.

We cannot justifiably say "You only read what we published, how can you think you're capable of understanding it?" If it requires that someone go diving into reams of messages on a forum to grok a metaphor... then something seems terribly awry. I would LOVE to help put together the compainion work "Golden Sphere of Possibility" however, to do that,

I NEED ESSAYS.

In the forums we have a lot of 'Work In Progress' stuff, Ruts/Slopes, Shrapnel, Vehicles, Lego Blocks, Deserts etc... but almost all of them begin with a rough essay, which has many comments and critiques and modifications. IF the authors of those pieces would like to submit a current version that reflects the metaphor as they currently have it developed, I'll do all the layout work etc. IF the BiP were tied with an equally available companion book which showed all these other great models, I think people like DK would have a far better chance of seeing what we're up to, without relying on one small model that really only has some applicability to some aspects of the concepts we're playing with.

So I'll make a new GSP thread and again ask for submissions. 

[AFK]

We cannot justifiably say "You only read what we published, how can you think you're capable of understanding it?" If it requires that someone go diving into reams of messages on a forum to grok a metaphor... then something seems terribly awry. I would LOVE to help put together the compainion work "Golden Sphere of Possibility" however, to do that,

Sure we can.  Because the BIP pamphlet was never meant to be the "bible" of the BIP metaphor.  It was a collection of essays circling around the ideas.  Or at least, that's how I remember it, others can correct me if I'm off base with that.  We had 2 other projects in the planning stages.  The original plan was to be producing products in a somewhat similar fashion as what we're doing with Intermittens now. 

Now, that said, I also think your idea of a collection of the other memes/models, is a decent idea. 

But the BIP metaphor really did grow beyond what was put in the pamphlet.  Maybe there should be a disclaimer added to the pamphlet that directs people to the wiki so they know there is more to the BIP canon then what was put in the pamphlet. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

We cannot justifiably say "You only read what we published, how can you think you're capable of understanding it?" If it requires that someone go diving into reams of messages on a forum to grok a metaphor... then something seems terribly awry. I would LOVE to help put together the compainion work "Golden Sphere of Possibility" however, to do that,

Sure we can.  Because the BIP pamphlet was never meant to be the "bible" of the BIP metaphor.  It was a collection of essays circling around the ideas.  Or at least, that's how I remember it, others can correct me if I'm off base with that.  We had 2 other projects in the planning stages.  The original plan was to be producing products in a somewhat similar fashion as what we're doing with Intermittens now. 

Well, sure we can expect that... but it seems rather unrealistic. There is a published thing, which, in and of itself says nothing like "This is an incomplete work, please go dig up threads on PD to actually understand our current views"... It's just published with a beginning and an end... and stuff in the middle.

It looks feels and acts like a completed work.... I don't think its unreasonable for the reader to assume its a completed work.

[AFK]

Well, no it isn't unreasonable. 

But I don't think it is unreasonable that when said reader shows up that we direct them to the supporting material and then said reader reads that material. 

Willful ignorance won't help the discussions at all. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, no it isn't unreasonable. 

But I don't think it is unreasonable that when said reader shows up that we direct them to the supporting material and then said reader reads that material. 

Willful ignorance won't help the discussions at all. 

Well yes, that also is true.

[fomenter]

enki and i are bouncing around the lego model, its still very green but with lots of GSP potential i will attempt a submission but i think the idea needs to be more fully developed before its in a usable shape.