Limits - Real v's Imagined

[P3nT4gR4m]

Which is which?

rough percentage of each?

How to detect and/or test limits?

Criteria for examination?

... dungeon thread got me wondering.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Which is which?

rough percentage of each?

How to detect and/or test limits?

Criteria for examination?

... dungeon thread got me wondering.

Well, they're all Real... in some sense 

However, it seems to me that There are Real limits determined by what data one is physically capable of receiving. Everything else, it seems, has to be built on top of that. Further, it seems to me, that everything on top of that is a limit that is imposed. If we were using Leary 8-circuits... I would say that all of the circuits impose limits that can be modified, but the stuff that makes up the circuits is much less malleable.

I don't think that means that 'imposed' limits are less real, maybe they're just less permanent

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm thinking more along the lines of barstools v's beliefs

Not being able to jump 100 feet up a cliff at will v's belief that you are utterly incapable of understanding math.

[Jasper]

In a rather large sense, the only limits are what you're willing to risk, and how lucky you are.

Other than the standard mechanistic set of limits.  Physics count just as much as personal limits.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm thinking more along the lines of barstools v's beliefs

Not being able to jump 100 feet up a cliff at will v's belief that you are utterly incapable of understanding math.

Ah, hrmmm...

Well in that case I'd say we discuss limits based on three things: DNA, Physics and Will and the example of a Potential Bodybuilder (PB).

If PB does not have the DNA to support building lots of muscle mass, then DNA has imposed a real limit to being a bodybuilder.
If PB has the DNA to support building lots of muscle mass, but lives in outer space, we could say Physics has imposed a real limit to PB's dreams.
If PB has the DNA and location necessary to build muscle mass, but does not have the Will to workout, PB has imposed a limit on his own dreams.

The lack of Will could be due to imprinting(if I think I'm a 'no good shit', I likely won't be working out too much), or it could be due to belief (if I'm 'peacable among all men', then maybe building muscle mass seems wrong).

Imagined Limits are ones you can break. If you can break 'em, they just ain't real.

[That One Guy]

I'd say the vast majority of limits are imagined, in that the only true limits are the physical laws of the universe and the physiological limitations of the human body in perceiving/interacting with the universe. Everything other than those physical limits is imagined, since they are artificial constructs based on interpretation within that framework of physical limitations.

Imagined Limits are ones you can break. If you can break 'em, they just ain't real.

That's a nice shorthand!

However, I do have to quibble with the 2nd PB example - with the potential muscle mass but not location - since it's entirely possible to build muscle mass in outer space as long as one has the resources to do so. It would have a potential impact on the amount of muscle mass able to be built, but would not in and of itself prevent that muscle mass from building, and thus would have to be a perceived rather than real limitation in that it can be overcome with the correct equipment and training regiment.

[Dead Kennedy]

Real limitations encourage creative solutions, imagined limitations prevent creative solutions.  A list of real limitations tells us what we must overcome to achieve what we can imagine, a list of false limitations tells us why we can't achieve what we can imagine.

In some cases, false and real limitations may be stated exactly the same way, with the only difference being one of tone.  If you dream of going to the moon, then "The moon is very far away." can be both a real and a false limitation.  It can be a hurtle to be overcome, or it can be a reason to never try.

So the first test to see if a limitation is real is to ask "If I change my attitude does this problem remain?"

Real limitations are observable in reality.  Usually they are measurable (in theory at least). Concepts like religious and natural law, which seem to impose limits on what we can do, fall apart if you go looking for evidence of them. The moon really is observably far away.  You can measure the distance to the moon.  You can't measure Sin, or Karma, or the effect of natural laws.

Not all real limitations are strictly physical facts though.  "It's illegal to murder." is a socially constructed fact, but like physical facts it can be seen as inspiring ("I'll plan the perfect murder.") or defeating ("I'll go to jail!")  But these socially constructed real limitations are still observable. There are law books. There are prisons. There are cops. You can explain to them all about the Black Iron Prison that causes them to believe in the illusion of their authority as they drag you away.  They'll get a laugh out of it.  Maybe they won't beat you too bad.

But you can put a rubber on your willy.  It may violate natural law, but you can clearly do it.  Natural law's power to limit your behavior is directly proportional to the amount of belief you invest in the concept of natural law.  Of course, that makes it sound like only ideological beliefs are false.  There are also non-ideological false limitations:  "I can't talk to that pretty girl, I'm too ugly."  But you clearly can walk over to the pretty girl and talk to her.

So the second test is to ask "Can I observe the limitation functioning?"

[Jasper]

I actually agree somewhat.  I think our posts fairly well coincide.

I like the last line - the idea that it's only a limitation if it is objectively observable.