Financial fuckery thread

[Disco Pickle]

What is interesting about both of these things, and many others recently, such as the austerity bills and various legal rulings from the Supreme Court which don't even pretend to follow precedent, is how the velvet glove has come off the iron fist of state and corporate repression.  The elites think that there is nothing ordinary people can do. Whatever the elites do, no matter how harsh, the hoi polloi can only submit.  And if they don't, well, so much the worse for them.

at the risk of taking a really REALLY good thread in a different direction for a bit I wanted some input from you guys on the bolded part. 

In the circles I travel I don't run into this term much.  A lot of you guys on here fall way left of me politically and you're really informed, part of the reason I like it here even though we wouldn't agree on a lot of things over a few beers and politic. 

Would one of you elaborate on this concept in the modern world?  Maybe I should narrow the scope to modern 1st world.  I'm very aware of the sort of atrocities that are carried out for diamonds, precious metals and the like in countries most of us will never visit, but I'm not sure that's what the author is talking about.

I mean there is no Shinra Corp.  This is not (yet) Ghost in the Shell or Shadowrun.

You have my ears.  Teach me and show me where I am wrong because from where I sit, it's in my and my families and friend's best interests for corporations to grow and make money as it offers me at least a chance of a comfortable old age, not having to wonder how I'm going to feed myself when I can no longer work, and I've never once felt oppressed by a corporation. 

Except maybe insurance companies of all kind.

[Cuddlefish]

I've been following this thread for a while. A genuine concern for the future of America and the world has kept me, more or less, glued to these forums and other news sources. I feel that I, despite a proper background in economics, more or less, "get" what's going on.

My default optimism, however, has changed to doubt. Before I leave optimism behind, and start stockpiling gas, food, batteries, and medical supplies, I was wondering if anyone here, that's better versed in this area, could tell me if there is a silver lining to this shit tornado. I'd like to beleive there is, but I have yet to identify one myself.

[Cain]

Pickles,

Large corporations now form an integral part of the US police state, which is directed more at internal political dissidents and hackers than at, say, detecting terrorist threats.  See, well, pretty much every entry on http://antifascist-calling.blogspot.com for good examples.

[Triple Zero]

This particular bit especially stood out to me. It keeps coming back to me to wonder about, and then I forget it again [when I think of the less ethical things LulzSec and Anon did] until it is somehow brought back to my attention ... very Spider-esque.

But yeah.  Ian Welsh, who I occasionally read, said it best:

[...]

Since, of course, the DOJ has shown no interest in pursuing those who did DDOS attacks against Wikileaks, it is yet another confirmation that the law, as it exists now, is used as a bludgeon against people the government doesn't like, while those who the government does like are left alone, and crimes against the government's "enemies" aren't investigated.  Laws which do not have at least the appearance of being evenly applied are not just, are not perceived as just, and become legitimate targets for breaking.

[...]

[Disco Pickle]

Pickles,

Large corporations now form an integral part of the US police state, which is directed more at internal political dissidents and hackers than at, say, detecting terrorist threats.  See, well, pretty much every entry on http://antifascist-calling.blogspot.com for good examples.

Got it.  Taken in the context of the article, which I clearly ignored, yeah.  Mercenary corporations being used in place of National Guard, Black Hatters going White as "consultants" for DoD and DHS (the "hey, it's a paycheck" mentality he mentions) and digging up docs on Anon's.  That list is getting larger and larger. 

I'm a bit on the fence between supporting some of Anon's recent antics, depending on the target, and thinking that their energy would be better spent actually DOING something rather than these symbolic shows that really only prove what we already know, that the global botnets are pretty fucking annoying when directed at websites.

And dumping docs on innocent consumers of say, Sony's services I will never be able to get behind.

Much more clear in that context the article mentions though. 

[Disco Pickle]

I've been following this thread for a while. A genuine concern for the future of America and the world has kept me, more or less, glued to these forums and other news sources. I feel that I, despite a proper background in economics, more or less, "get" what's going on.

My default optimism, however, has changed to doubt. Before I leave optimism behind, and start stockpiling gas, food, batteries, and medical supplies, I was wondering if anyone here, that's better versed in this area, could tell me if there is a silver lining to this shit tornado. I'd like to believe there is, but I have yet to identify one myself.

I take the long view on these things.  I was too young to actually know what was going on in the last great recession of the 70's and 80's, but I damn sure felt its after shocks growing up.  

These things (unemployment, Real Gross Domestic Product (GDPCA)) have historically cycled.  If you look at graphs going back to the 50's with a few notable exceptions, GDP in the US (my frame of reference, not sure where you are) has been in the black for most of that time period.  Employment has been much more volatile and charts show it swinging from from trough to peak in nearly exactly 10 year cycles with the occasional double dip like happened in the 80's and like what is conceivably happening now.

While it will never be a bad idea to be prepared for any eventuality and to stock up on supplies, rotate out canned food, old water and things of that nature, I can't in good faith get on board with the survivalist types that preach doom and gloom all over the internets.  And on some of the boards I frequent, that shit is EVERYWHERE.  Doesn't make them right, but planning like that can't ever be said to be a BAD thing.  I just don't see everything collapsing like that in my lifetime.  

If you've got money in the global market, keep an eye on it and consider either cashing it out and sitting on it for awhile (if that's what you think you should do) or at least consider being more conservative in where it's invested.  The time for risk is on an uptick and I don't believe we're there yet, but I do believe things will recover.  It's in all of our interests that they do, and they always have before.

--Pickle, 2 cents from a die hard optimist

[ETA]  Those same charts DO show Real GDP never rising higher than the last peak over time, something that I would say definitely should be worrysome, but then I've been saying we need a real correction for awhile now since we've never really had one so long as the Fed pumps money back in to inflate prices every time we have a recession.

[Doktor Howl]

Despite his unfortunate name, Mr Welsh is right on the fucking money.

The law no longer serves freedom or the individual to any degree whatsoever.  This is unacceptable.

[Disco Pickle]

This probably deserves it's own thread but S&P just downgraded the US from AAA

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/05/news/economy/downgrade_rumors/index.htm?iid=Lead

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Credit rating agency Standard & Poor's on Friday downgraded the credit rating of the United States, stripping the world's largest economy of its prized AAA status.
In July, S&P placed the United States' rating on "CreditWatch with negative implications" as the debt ceiling debate devolved into partisan bickering.

To avoid a downgrade, S&P said the United States needed to not only raise the debt ceiling, but also develop a "credible" plan to tackle the nation's long-term debt.
In its report Friday, S&P ruled that the U.S. fell short: "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the ... plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics."
S&P also cited dysfunctional policymaking in Washington as a factor in the downgrade. "The effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges."

The safest bets are stamped AAA. That's where U.S. debt has stood for years. Moody's first assigned the United States a AAA rating in 1917.
In the days after lawmakers managed to strike a debt-ceiling deal, the two other major rating agencies have both said the deficit reduction actions taken by Congress were a step in the right direction.
On Tuesday, Moody's said the United States will keep its sterling AAA credit rating, but lowered its outlook on U.S. debt to "negative."
Even if a downgrade were to occur, the United States will likely still be able to pay its bills for years to come and remains a good credit risk.
Investors have limited options for making safe investments, and Treasuries are effectively as liquid as cash. And other big countries have been downgraded and were still able to borrow at low rates.
At the same time, some experts warn that a downgrade could gum up the banking system and ripple out onto Main Street. Treasuries are used as collateral in many transactions between financial institutions and grease the skids of lending.
Consumers and investors could feel the impact of a downgrade. Interest rates on bonds could rise, and rates on mortgages and other types of loans along with them.
Government-backed agencies like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac may also be downgraded. It's also possible that some state and local governments could also face a downgrade.
And investment decisions would become complicated for large institutional investors that are required to hold highly-rated securities.

fuck.

this shit will echo.

[ETA] the last 2 day sell off REEKS of insider info.

[Telarus]

Pickles,

Large corporations now form an integral part of the US police state, which is directed more at internal political dissidents and hackers than at, say, detecting terrorist threats.  See, well, pretty much every entry on http://antifascist-calling.blogspot.com for good examples.

I'd like to add to this that Corporations don't have the same restrictions as Gov Agencies (i.e. they can trample your privacy rights as a condition of employment, something which has been ruled Unconstitutional if a State Agency tried it).

This might not seem like a big deal, until you realize HOW MUCH of government function has been "privatized".

And dude.... Blackwater 'successfully' swapped masks and costumes to be reborn as Xe, and they're still making money.. So yeah.. It's Shadowrun, but the "Dragons" are the Oil Companies.....

[Precious Moments Zalgo]

the last 2 day sell off REEKS of insider info.

It's amazing how the market always seems to correctly anticipate news such as this.  No news is ever publicly announced before it has already been completely priced into the market.

[Disco Pickle]

the last 2 day sell off REEKS of insider info.

It's amazing how the market always seems to correctly anticipate news such as this.  No news is ever publicly announced before it has already been completely priced into the market.

If I'm being honest, I should have gotten out of stocks the moment they passed the debt deal.  A lot of big money did Thursday morning if you look at the index charts.  It was one giant sell off right at opening bell and like penguins jumping off an ice flow, the rest followed.


though maybe lemmings is a more appropriate simile.

My knee jerk reaction is "insider info" but really if you look at the numbers it's been headed down a slope since at least Monday.

[Cain]

Yeah, I have to admit, my initial reaction was the same, but as you say, the US has been bleeding since the debt deal (and the Eurozone is like a guy with lacerations hooked up to an unlimited supply of blood - that fucker is going to bleed and bleed and bleed).

On the other hand, Friday was sufficiently unusual, even by that week's standards, that insider trading cannot be entirely ruled out.

[Cain]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14430598

China has scolded the US over its "addiction to debt" after rating agency Standard & Poor's downgraded the US' top-notch AAA rating to AA+.

State news agency Xinhua said unless the US cut its "gigantic military expenditure and bloated welfare costs," another downgrade would be inevitable.

But other countries, such as Australia, France and Japan, said they retained their faith in US bonds.

The downgrade ended a week of growing uncertainty for the world economy.

Fears that the US might be headed for a double-dip recession and the eurozone's debt problems were set to spread to Italy and Spain saw stock market sell-offs around the world.

The downgrade is a major embarrassment for the administration of President Barack Obama and could raise the cost of US government borrowing.

This in turn could trickle down to higher interest rates for local governments and individuals.

One initial estimate says that could add an extra $75bn (£46bn) to the US annual interest rate bill at a time when its debt levels are already high.

The other two major credit rating agencies, Moody's and Fitch, said they had no immediate plans to follow S&P in taking the US off their lists of risk-free borrowers.

[Adios]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14430598

China has scolded the US over its "addiction to debt" after rating agency Standard & Poor's downgraded the US' top-notch AAA rating to AA+.

State news agency Xinhua said unless the US cut its "gigantic military expenditure and bloated welfare costs," another downgrade would be inevitable.

But other countries, such as Australia, France and Japan, said they retained their faith in US bonds.

The downgrade ended a week of growing uncertainty for the world economy.

Fears that the US might be headed for a double-dip recession and the eurozone's debt problems were set to spread to Italy and Spain saw stock market sell-offs around the world.

The downgrade is a major embarrassment for the administration of President Barack Obama and could raise the cost of US government borrowing.

This in turn could trickle down to higher interest rates for local governments and individuals.

One initial estimate says that could add an extra $75bn (£46bn) to the US annual interest rate bill at a time when its debt levels are already high.

The other two major credit rating agencies, Moody's and Fitch, said they had no immediate plans to follow S&P in taking the US off their lists of risk-free borrowers.

It reminds me of a tent revival meeting where a guy in a white suit is expected to come on stage in the middle of a big musical production and make everything okay.

PROTIP; the hero is dead and has been for decades, he was shot in the back by snake oil salesmen. And we bought it.

This problem has been building for decades. It very well may take decades to fix completely. In order to do that however, all players involved are going to have to forget about the R or the D that comes with their title. may I suggest we replace them with an A? For American, a forgotten breed that used to be upstanding, courageous, bold and involved.

There is hard work ahead, work, not political screeching. Real work and tough choices. Personally, I don't see how we can avoid affecting every single American to one degree or another. We have allowed ourselves to end up in a pretty deep ditch with no visible way out, except by working together and cutting a set of steps in the bank.

As a nation we need to curtail the billions or trillions we spend in other countries who decide to do what we want in exchange for our cash. We are out of cash. We need to stop exporting war, yesterday. Things like the Arts, PBS, etc should have to rely on private donations, not the government.

There are hundreds of things that can be done without negatively impacting us here, and those things should be on the table first. Then we move to the second layer, then the third...

Things need to be done in a business like manner, leaving emotions and pet projects outside the room.

Junkets, Air Force 1, private government helicopters, all of these things only help to isolate the decision makers from the reality that those of us trying to get by must face on a daily basis. I want the decision makers to be out here with us, serving instead of ruling. They are not our overlords, they work for us, the American people. As such we are their bosses, not their servants.

Hell, we have a program that is so big that we don't even know how much it costs us, the HLS, the TPA and domestic spying. A hot sharp knife to its scrotum may pay some huge dividends. Why is it a sacred cow?

Point is, there are things that can and should be done first, and they should be done soon, before the end of the year.

American is crumbling folks, and not just our national infrastructure, but perhaps more importantly, our national sense of who we are.

[Cain]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14434831

The European Central Bank is due to hold emergency talks on whether to start buying Italian debt to contain spreading turmoil on financial markets.

The BBC's Business Editor Robert Peston says the ECB is split on the move.

Growing worries over debt in the eurozone and the US caused sharp falls on world stock markets last week.

Finance ministers from the G7 major economic powers are also to hold emergency talks on how to calm the markets before they reopen on Monday.

The governing council of the ECB, which includes the central bank governors of all 17 eurozone countries, will hold a telephone conference on Sunday afternoon, the BBC has learned.

According to an ECB source cited by Reuters news agency, the bank's president Jean-Claude Trichet wants a final decision on whether to buy Italian debt to be made at the meeting.

Middle East markets, which are open for trading on Sunday, lost ground, with Israel's main exchange dropping by more than 6%.

There are fears that unless leaders can announce a decisive plan of action before Asian and European markets open on Monday, global shares could plunge even further.

I think fears of a Spanish default are overstated, but Italy is most certainly fucked.