Question for Rat, potato, and other X-Xtians

[Thurnez Isa]

According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great
According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria
Herod died 4 bc and the Quirinius was governor around 7 ad
Luke has Mary and Joseph traveling from Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea
Matthew says that it was only after the birth of Jesus that Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth after fleeing to Egypt
Luke says that everyone had to go to the city of their birth to register for the census - that absurd never happened or will. It would have been a bureaucratic nightmare

These are almost all valid critisims. However, Matthew is entirely silent on where Joseph and Mary lived before or after Jesus' birth. Only that he was born in Bethlehem and later went to Egypt, then decided to go home to Judea, had a bad dream and went instead to Nazareth. That would make sense if Nazareth was Mary's hometown as Luke states.

a  problem lies with Matthew's Magi... Luke is unclear what happened till 8 days when they named in Jesus then they go to Jerusalem where they meet Simeon and Anna and went to Nazareth
Matthew is actually not unclear
it doesn't make sense that the problem

"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. "

This is clearly in Bethlehem... mind you it's also a house... so it's been suggested it's Nazareth, but that would make the fleeing to Egypt nonsensical cause they have to pass south through Bethlehem to get to Egypt trying to escape Herod's baby killing dragnet... and we would they have to go to Egypt while baby Jesus is fine way up north in Nazareth... so in this case he couldn't have made it for to meet Simeon (which Luke states happens immediately after the naming of the baby) cause he would be in Egypt
You can't have baby Jesus in Jerusalem after 8 days and in Bethlehem waiting for the Magi, or fleeing to Egypt, or going to Nazareth just to head back south towards the danger to flee it....
See the only way to make sense of this is to make shit up or do one of the points I made earlier
In order words have them go to Nazareth then flee just out of being scared. Again that falls apart cause they are told to flee by an angel acting on God's behave. What God didn't know he was actually safer up north.

[Requia ☣]

Catholics also have their very own version of the Bible.  

No, the dipwads who use the King James have their own special Bible, (complete with censorship to match the politics at the time the translation was done).  Catholics have an official translation, but my church was stocked with New American and New Living translations as well.

[Thurnez Isa]

Requia I'm still stuck with my king James from high school
how is the New American translation?
worth the investment.
and by investment I mean investment in time going to the Chaplin here and seeing where i could pick up a free copy...
Im not big on reading online.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Requia I'm still stuck with my king James from high school
how is the New American translation?
worth the investment.
and by investment I mean investment in time going to the Chaplin here and seeing where i could pick up a free copy...
Im not big on reading online.

Personally, I find http://www.biblegateway.com/ always useful for reference. Mostly I remember the Chapter o the book and can find it and quote quickly. And I love to use multiple versions, finding the one that most usefully pisses off the Christian or anti-Christian... respectivly

[Requia ☣]

It depends on what you're after really.  I recommend going to bible gateway, running through different versions of a passage, and figuring out whats readable to you.  For me New American is the easiest to read, New Living is good for finding the things that might be mistranslated in other versions (though i don't entirely trust it).  I recommend against any translation from before 1950, peer review on that kind of thing used to suck.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It depends on what you're after really.  I recommend going to bible gateway, running through different versions of a passage, and figuring out whats readable to you.  For me New American is the easiest to read, New Living is good for finding the things that might be mistranslated in other versions (though i don't entirely trust it).  I recommend against any translation from before 1950, peer review on that kind of thing used to suck.

[Telarus]

Rat, you're familiar with Chris Bennet's work (oh, he liked my article, btw)...

How much validity do you think the KHN BSM people have? Were the esoteric secrets in the Holy Anointing Oil of Moses hidden through mistranslation?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Rat, you're familiar with Chris Bennet's work (oh, he liked my article, btw)...

How much validity do you think the KHN BSM people have? Were the esoteric secrets in the Holy Anointing Oil of Moses hidden through mistranslation?

Well, I read his book 'Green Gold' and I think he does a really great job covering some of the religions... the Kaneh mistranslation seems plausible, but I'm not at all convinced. I think it seems more probable than the 'calamus' translation, just based on the documented properties alone. Very interesting stuff, I'd love to have additional researchers and peer reviews of his work though.

[Thurnez Isa]

question Rat... when you were a member of the JW... was there any discussion of contradictions with other members, leaders of the church, or just people who's door you came to?
and if there was did it even mentally register as a serious question, with your or with your JW friends?
and Im not sure you ever mentioned, what made you eventually lose your faith?

you don't have to answer the last if you want

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

question Rat... when you were a member of the JW... was there any discussion of contradictions with other members, leaders of the church, or just people who's door you came to?
and if there was did it even mentally register as a serious question, with your or with your JW friends?
and Im not sure you ever mentioned, what made you eventually lose your faith?

you don't have to answer the last if you want

Inside the organization hierarchy was always preserved. Basically, the logic goes like this;

1. Jesus chose 144,000 faithful humans to join him in heaven as Kings and Priests. This is the Anointed Class.

2. The 'remnant" of the Anointed that are alive on earth at any given time (last count I recall was somewhere near 8000) are the channel that God uses to direct his people. They are called "The Faithful and Discrete Slave"(FDS) (see Jesus parable about the Slaves and the monies). They give God's people "the proper food at the proper time".

3. Out of the FDS, 12 men are appointed as The Governing Body. They oversee all of the International Work, they set policy, they oversee all writings etc.

4. From the GB, the world is split into Districts, with overseers; then Circuits with overseers, then congregations with Elders. Any of these people may or may not be anointed.

5. So, the GB/FDS/Writing Committee basically set all the interpretations, beliefs etc. Questioning the GB or FDS is very close to the one unforgivable sin. If you outright state that they do not have God's spirit... then that is considered "Blaspheming against the Spirit" and makes you 'apostate' and you lose your chance to get in the New Order. This is worse than Murder, Adultery, etc... God will forgive you for all of that... but not for claiming that the FDS are just a bunch of confused old people.

"Questioning" was always encouraged... as long as it was followed up with 'research' and 'prayer and meditation' which should bring you to the same conclusion as the FDS/GB. If not, then you either pretend, shut up or try again. Questioning the Elders is acceptable, but in the end, they believe that they are sheep who should follow the shepherds. If the shepherds lead them off a cliff, then they expect God to deal with the Shepherd and protect them.

So... no not much questioning happens in their system. They do a lot of research,   but that research is almost always from the current publications from the Watchtower Society. External sources can be used, but if they disagree with the Watchtower publications, the Watchtower is considered right (after all, God's faithful slave wrote it!).

Externally, was another matter. Many people think that they have GOTCHA questions, but most of the time, they are the same gotcha questions that every asshole at the door asks. The society publishes a book called "Reasoning From The Scriptures", which covers a couple hundred 'likely' questions, complete with scriptural references, hand picked quotes from other sources and a nice searchable index. They even encourage pulling the book out at the door and showing the householder (appeal to authority works well) along with the answers etc.

Usually, questions I got asked fell into three categories:

1) Stupid (Can God make an X so Y that he can't do Z ): Most JW's cut this one off because the householder always says "SO, let me ask you this, God can do anything right?" to which you reply, "No, God cannot Lie and God cannot do anything without a purpose (based on a Psalm I don't recall)". If the person has a brain, they'll realize that a big rock is purposeless and will go elsewhere in the conversation. However, some people seem stuck and just barrel through "But, he can do anything right? So can he make a rock..." at which point you say "It wouldn't serve any purpose, so No".

2) Anti-Bible: These are the people that always want to ask you about why obscure scripture X and Y don't precisely agree. Depending on which topic, there are different answers, again, JW's have the book and have spent a lot of time memorizing the right Answer.

3) Theistic: These are the people that want to talk about "You don't believe in Hell!", "You don't fight for your country!", etc. Usually, they either have a skewed view, or the Watchtower has a nicely prepared answer that disarms them.

Most of the time, stupid questions indicate that its a waste of time to talk to the person. Anti-Bible, can sometimes be converted and the Theistic ones are most likely to be converted (showing someone that the trinity or Hell isn't supported in their own bible is a good way to make them question their belief system).

I can't recall many questions that really made me think "Maybe I'm wrong!" though, it was almost always something I was prepared for.


I lost my faith through a number of events, the most obvious being an issue of interpretation. JW's have for decades claimed that Jesus took his throne in heaven as the King of God's Kingdom, in October 1914. This is based on a complicated bit of math involving a dream Nebuchadnezzar had and some line God told Moses "A day for a year". However, they have claimed that this was the second coming, or presence of Jesus, as he told his disciples about "When will be the conclusion of this system of things?" After describing wars and pestilence and earthquakes etc., Jesus said "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things come to pass."

So, JW's reasoned, the generation that saw 1914, WWI, the Spanish Influenza etc. would still be alive when the Great Tribulation and Armageddon come. Since the Bible says that man lived 70 years, or 80 if by special mightiness), that meant the end was close. They taught us that, they had it in the books and we went out and taught others (I was a regular pioneer, which meant I spent 90 hours a month preaching).

At the turn of the century, a new article came out which said the word "generation" was really intended to speak of a general attitude, rather than a specific amount of time.

Within a year, they had new publications to teach out of, which replaced the old ones and didn't say anything about generation etc.

Shortly thereafter, they wrote in a Watchtower article that "Some had thought generation meant... but the Faithful and Discrete Slave provided proper clarification..."

I called shenanigans.

Then I started really researching the history of the group. I learned that they had predicted the end many times (1888,1912, 1914, 192something, 1975, and a few others). I learned that they once had an estate in California called "Beth Saram" which was a home for the "princes" David, Samuel, Abraham etc. who were going to come back before the End and take over running the organization. They don't talk about that. They don't talk about our founder CT Russel who was measuring the pyramids in Egypt to determine when the end of the world would come. Nor do they talk about how his belief that everyone would go to heaven, fits with the current belief that most people will live in paradise on Earth.

All of that and more showed up in my reality tunnel within about 6 months, and that's how I lost my faith.

[P3nT4gR4m]

What did it feel like? Apocalyptic? Relief? Liberating? None of the above?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

What did it feel like? Apocalyptic? Relief? Liberating? None of the above?

Well, at first it was confusing. I couldn't figure out what to do. About that time my marriage started falling apart, my wife tried to commit suicide several times, eventually ended up in a psych ward, I tried suicide and failed... and life in general sucked.

Then, at some point, I kicked the wife out, went to one more meeting at the Kingdom Hall and I've never been back. That same week, I joined the SCA and a week later went to my first Con (Marcon). At the end of that weekend, I had gone from exactly 1 girl that I had really made out with to three girls (one each night of the Con). A week later was my first date and act of Fornication!!! WHOOHOO!

Since then its been like a continual liberation. I was learning fencing and self defense, which I had never had any concept of being a pacifist. I was dating and fucking lots of interesting women. One was a Wiccan priestess (LOL) who was teaching me magic, the other was a high school science teacher that was teaching me there was no God. Both were teaching me all sorts of fun in bed LOL.

I really feel now, as though the two years after I left were the basis for a strong new imprinting. At the height of this, where I'd decided that Wicca was silly and Science didn't help me figure out my past experiences, I found She What Done It All. Reading the PD was as cathartic as all of this other stuff had been... I'd gone from KNOWING to SEEKING to that profound moment when it became obvious that it was all a fucking game.

I'd just started dating Sjaantze and she was definately poking my pineal gland on purpose. Her Dad (an old school Discordian hippie), was slowly eroding my belief in anything, as he gave me a new book every week or so... I was reading The Diegesis, alongside Quantum Psychology, Illuminatus Trilogy alongside Angel Tech, Book Four alongside a commentary on the Stichen Guide etc. Books on the Tarot, astrology, alchemy and UFO's... and in the end, I said to him "How can you believe all of this?"

And he said "Why the hell would I believe any of it? Have you read this shit?"

Then he gave me another load of books....

[P3nT4gR4m]

I envy you a bit in the fact that the PD enlightened you. By the time I read it I was already well in on the joke but I felt it was so well put together I kinda wished it had been that that flicked on my lightbulb

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I envy you a bit in the fact that the PD enlightened you. By the time I read it I was already well in on the joke but I felt it was so well put together I kinda wished it had been that that flicked on my lightbulb

Yeah, I think its why I have such a soft spot for it... I know a lot of people got enlightenment through other means, but for me the PD was a perfect fit... I think, though, that young disillusioned Christian may have been the target audience anyway

[LMNO]

And he said "Why the hell would I believe any of it? Have you read this shit?"

Headkick!