The dangers of Chao Surfing.

[LMNO]

I think some of us may be at cross-purposes here.

One of the things I might have learned from Discordia is the idea that Order and Disorder are Illusions, albeit necessary for human survival; and that you shouldn't rely to heavily on Illusions.

Also, there is a vague concept of "surfing the wave of chaos", of being adaptable and mutable to the various Disorders that crash into the faux-solidity of Order.

But what struck me about that as I was walking back from lunch, is that adapting to one's situation is inherently reactionary.  That is, it takes the immediate situation as a given, and then looks for ways to adapt.  The Change we speak of seems to come from an outside force, the Chaos that some call Eris.  The Change is always there, we don't cause it.  All we cause, to follow the logic, is illusion. 

So in a way, if you follow the train of thought, to surf chaos is to be led by the impersonal forces.  It isn't a way to strike out and be bold.  You won't get sucked under, but you won't rise above, either.  You're just being dragged along, and the best you can do is twist your body and try to avoid the coral reefs just below the surface.

There's a better way.  There has to be.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think some of us may be at cross-purposes here.

One of the things I might have learned from Discordia is the idea that Order and Disorder are Illusions, albeit necessary for human survival; and that you shouldn't rely to heavily on Illusions.

Also, there is a vague concept of "surfing the wave of chaos", of being adaptable and mutable to the various Disorders that crash into the faux-solidity of Order.

But what struck me about that as I was walking back from lunch, is that adapting to one's situation is inherently reactionary.  That is, it takes the immediate situation as a given, and then looks for ways to adapt.  The Change we speak of seems to come from an outside force, the Chaos that some call Eris.  The Change is always there, we don't cause it.  All we cause, to follow the logic, is illusion. 

So in a way, if you follow the train of thought, to surf chaos is to be led by the impersonal forces.  It isn't a way to strike out and be bold.  You won't get sucked under, but you won't rise above, either.  You're just being dragged along, and the best you can do is twist your body and try to avoid the coral reefs just below the surface.

There's a better way.  There has to be.

Sure, don't adapt to one's situation... make the situation adapt to you.

[the other anonymous]

[...] adapting to one's situation is inherently reactionary.  That is, it takes the immediate situation as a given, and then looks for ways to adapt.  The Change we speak of seems to come from an outside force, the Chaos that some call Eris.  The Change is always there, we don't cause it.  All we cause, to follow the logic, is illusion.

[...]

There's a better way.  There has to be.

A friend of mine once said, "Don't go with the flow; be the flow."

He was kinda trippin' on pollen at the time (I can't figure out what else it might have been).

We need more texts about how to frame arguments, how to control and direct different situations; all we have now are how-to's for exploiting situations and a forum full of one-liners.

A good starting place -- especially nowadays -- would be different methods of establishing funds quickly and safely.

In other words, we should focus on making the flow -- "sewing the seeds of discord" instead of stealing the fruit of other's labor.

-toa,
this is not the financial wizard you're looking for...

[Cain]

Lost my first reply, so I'll try again.

I'm inclined to say "well, duh", but then that is to be expected from me, since I don't do passivity well.  Nor being reactive, for that matter.

I prefer to create conditions of chaos, which usually means elements of order, though equally disorder has its uses, either as a condition to inflict on others, or else to mask the hidden order of my own activities.  Equally, if one is meant to react in a certain way, reacting in an unexpected, chaotic manner can certainly throw carefully laid plans out the window.

But then, I enjoy strategy and long term planning and the like, even while understanding their inherent limitations, so I would say that.

Also, at times it can be fun to play a game where you don't know the rules, or aren't even sure of the objective.  Sometimes.  But again, the difference between this and the passivity LMNO describes is probably located in the area of initiative.  If you are the one causing events - either according to a plan or simply to see what happens (cf Xanatos Speed Chess) then this is much different than the lackadasical and often hollow sounding claims to be "riding the waves of chaos" while in actuality submitting oneself to the ever-changing whims of fortune and chance.

[Corvidia]

Perhaps it's about HOW you adapt. NOT adapting means not surviving--you get nailed by the reef. But how you adapt is another issue entirely. Do you swim, do you float, do you duck under the waves and try to navigate that way? Or, alternately, do you go find the ass hole who's got the wave machine going and beat him senseless?

I vote for the forth option, but that's me.

[Telarus]

I think some of us may be at cross-purposes here.

One of the things I might have learned from Discordia is the idea that Order and Disorder are Illusions, albeit necessary for human survival; and that you shouldn't rely to heavily on Illusions.

Also, there is a vague concept of "surfing the wave of chaos", of being adaptable and mutable to the various Disorders that crash into the faux-solidity of Order.

But what struck me about that as I was walking back from lunch, is that adapting to one's situation is inherently reactionary.  That is, it takes the immediate situation as a given, and then looks for ways to adapt.  The Change we speak of seems to come from an outside force, the Chaos that some call Eris.  The Change is always there, we don't cause it.  All we cause, to follow the logic, is illusion. 

So in a way, if you follow the train of thought, to surf chaos is to be led by the impersonal forces.  It isn't a way to strike out and be bold.  You won't get sucked under, but you won't rise above, either.  You're just being dragged along, and the best you can do is twist your body and try to avoid the coral reefs just below the surface.

There's a better way.  There has to be.

Adapting to one's situation _is_ inherently reactionary, because that's what reality, as close as we can get to it.. is. Reactionary. Processes. That the eventual evolution of hydrogen, through multiple reactionary complexity shifts fed by a hydrogen star results in a mind that can grok meaningful contexts seems astronomically and grandly bizarre to me.

If one feels lost and confused in plain old reactionary reality, well.. you've found yourself on a surfboard in the ocean and have forgotten why you paddled all the way out there.

But wait, there's one pattern in da water, da wind pick up and here comes da big set. You should start paddle, eh braddah?

[Template]

Adapting to one's situation _is_ inherently reactionary, because that's what reality, as close as we can get to it.. is. Reactionary. Processes. That the eventual evolution of hydrogen, through multiple reactionary complexity shifts fed by a hydrogen star results in a mind that can grok meaningful contexts seems astronomically and grandly bizarre to me.

If one feels lost and confused in plain old reactionary reality, well.. you've found yourself on a surfboard in the ocean and have forgotten why you paddled all the way out there.

But wait, there's one pattern in da water, da wind pick up and here comes da big set. You should start paddle, eh braddah?

Something like this.  You can only react to situations, if you insist on acting at all.  Don't insist, all the time.  The ocean is bigger than you.  The water in contact with your surfboard is more your size.

Act in the situation, once you've adapted.  It's why you adapted to begin with, no?

[Honey]

I think some of us may be at cross-purposes here.

One of the things I might have learned from Discordia is the idea that Order and Disorder are Illusions, albeit necessary for human survival; and that you shouldn't rely to heavily on Illusions.

Also, there is a vague concept of "surfing the wave of chaos", of being adaptable and mutable to the various Disorders that crash into the faux-solidity of Order.

But what struck me about that as I was walking back from lunch, is that adapting to one's situation is inherently reactionary.  That is, it takes the immediate situation as a given, and then looks for ways to adapt.  The Change we speak of seems to come from an outside force, the Chaos that some call Eris.  The Change is always there, we don't cause it.  All we cause, to follow the logic, is illusion. 

So in a way, if you follow the train of thought, to surf chaos is to be led by the impersonal forces.  It isn't a way to strike out and be bold.  You won't get sucked under, but you won't rise above, either.  You're just being dragged along, and the best you can do is twist your body and try to avoid the coral reefs just below the surface.

There's a better way.  There has to be.

Hey I like this!  This & the thoughts that came from it (like a wave)   The undertow?  Is seductive for sure!  & immediate.  Gotta react to it or ya get slammed.  Even when you react to it (immediate like) you may still get slammed.  & that, I must admit, is sometimes a rogue play in & of itself.  But ... if you make it ... even if you're lying there on the shore, outta breath, panting, trembling & looking around to check out your surroundings  ... YOU ARE ALIVE & AWAKE.  The only thing to do?  Maybe your only option?  Get back in there.  One never knows.  You don't really need a surfboard.

It is as reasonable to represent one kind of imprisonment by another, as it is to represent anything that really exists by that which exists not.
-Daniel Defoe

[Cainad (dec.)]

I think some of us may be at cross-purposes here.

One of the things I might have learned from Discordia is the idea that Order and Disorder are Illusions, albeit necessary for human survival; and that you shouldn't rely to heavily on Illusions.

Also, there is a vague concept of "surfing the wave of chaos", of being adaptable and mutable to the various Disorders that crash into the faux-solidity of Order.

But what struck me about that as I was walking back from lunch, is that adapting to one's situation is inherently reactionary.  That is, it takes the immediate situation as a given, and then looks for ways to adapt.  The Change we speak of seems to come from an outside force, the Chaos that some call Eris.  The Change is always there, we don't cause it.  All we cause, to follow the logic, is illusion. 

So in a way, if you follow the train of thought, to surf chaos is to be led by the impersonal forces.  It isn't a way to strike out and be bold.  You won't get sucked under, but you won't rise above, either.  You're just being dragged along, and the best you can do is twist your body and try to avoid the coral reefs just below the surface.

There's a better way.  There has to be.

Have you ever surfed?

If not, you might want to seek out a more apt metaphor, because part of the beauty and awe of surfing comes from the fact that you, personally, have nothing to do with the wave. It just moves and you try to take actions that will achieve the most desirable results. Being moved by a power much, much greater than yourself is a huge part of what makes it cool.

To suggest a means of rising "above" the wave seems to imply that we should rely on making our own waves (which, according to the metaphor, would require godlike power) or all get on a boat, or something.


But now I'm getting all tied up in the metaphor. You're right; adapting to one's situation is inherently reactionary. Is that a bad thing, and if so, what do we do about it?

Most importantly, how can we describe it metaphorically?

[Kai]

I admit that when I first saw this thread I thought it said

"The dangers of Chao Tipping."

[LMNO]

I admit that when I first saw this thread I thought it said

"The dangers of Chao Tipping."

Oh, fuck.  That's brilliant.  I'm stealing that, and making a contest out of it.  Check Apple Talk.