Return to roots.

[That One Guy]

I can only assume you're trolling me, now. If you're not, sorry. However, I have other things to do and have no desire to continue this.

[Rev Thwack]

Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.

But you're discussing something that you are admittedly ignorant of, why should anyone bother to try to communicate thoughtfully? You've made a number of statements that simply aren't true and some generalizations that don't fit with any known experiences I've had or heard of with UU groups. Many members of UU are Atheists, others agnostics, some Buddhists, Pagans, spiritualists, nominal christians, etc etc etc

Go educate yourself and maybe then people will feel its worth their time to discuss your 'points'.

[Cramulus]

personally thwack, I think you're on the wrong side of the fence here. To me, it reads like this fictional sarcastic parody:

Poster 1: Discordians are internet trolls
Poster 2: actually, I'm a Discordian, and speaking as a mother, that's not true.
Poster 1: You're being closedminded. Think for yourself, shmuck!
Poster 2:  but check out the Principia, it doesn't even mention internet trolling!
Poster 1: So? The ten commandments don't mention cutting off boys genitals, but j00s do it anyway, because they're sheep, like you
Poster 2:  

[Rev Thwack]

Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.

But you're discussing something that you are admittedly ignorant of, why should anyone bother to try to communicate thoughtfully? You've made a number of statements that simply aren't true and some generalizations that don't fit with any known experiences I've had or heard of with UU groups. Many members of UU are Atheists, others agnostics, some Buddhists, Pagans, spiritualists, nominal christians, etc etc etc

Go educate yourself and maybe then people will feel its worth their time to discuss your 'points'.

So you're saying that it follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do? You're saying That One Guy wasn't acing more like someone pissed over the fact that someone wasn't sharing his view of his religion, but more like someone willing to discuss how another was wrong in their understanding of his beliefs?

What I was saying is that there are certain problems that are inherent in organized religion in general. I admitted that I'm not an expert on UU, but from reading what they have on their site about their belief, operation, and formation, that they are going to fall into many of these too. Considering that the part of what I was saying that That One Guy seemed to have an issue with is my suggestion that UU believes in a god and that he doesn't actually question his own beliefs, but agreed that UU falls victim to the two things I listed as the main problems with organized religion leads me to believe that he's just trying to distance his viewset from that of other main churches in the world.

Was I wrong about some things I said? Yes, yes I was. But not once did someone say "here is where you are wrong, and here is the way things really are on this point". Sure, they don't follow one set of beliefs, and in a way it's actually wrong to try to call it a religion or a church... it's more like a clubhouse for people who agree that the underlying fundamentals for most world religions are a good idea and it would be nice if people would actually follow them, so let's get together and talk about how it's nice to have a belief set of some sorts.

And no, I'm not just ignorantly spouting bullshit. I've been sitting here the whole time reading the bylaws and rules that UU follows. Sure, I still don't have the worlds best grasp on it's current operation from a church service point of view, but I do know its origins and the way it operations from an organizational standpoint.

[Aufenthatt]

personally thwack, I think you're on the wrong side of the fence here. To me, it reads like this fictional sarcastic parody:

Poster 1: Discordians are internet trolls
Poster 2: actually, I'm a Discordian, and speaking as a mother, that's not true.
Poster 1: You're being closedminded. Think for yourself, shmuck!
Poster 2:  but check out the Principia, it doesn't even mention internet trolling!
Poster 1: So? The ten commandments don't mention cutting off boys genitals, but j00s do it anyway, because they're sheep, like you
Poster 2:  

[Rev Thwack]

personally thwack, I think you're on the wrong side of the fence here. To me, it reads like this fictional sarcastic parody:

Poster 1: Discordians are internet trolls
Poster 2: actually, I'm a Discordian, and speaking as a mother, that's not true.
Poster 1: You're being closedminded. Think for yourself, shmuck!
Poster 2:  but check out the Principia, it doesn't even mention internet trolling!
Poster 1: So? The ten commandments don't mention cutting off boys genitals, but j00s do it anyway, because they're sheep, like you
Poster 2:  

Almost perfect, just needs more cowbell. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.

But you're discussing something that you are admittedly ignorant of, why should anyone bother to try to communicate thoughtfully? You've made a number of statements that simply aren't true and some generalizations that don't fit with any known experiences I've had or heard of with UU groups. Many members of UU are Atheists, others agnostics, some Buddhists, Pagans, spiritualists, nominal christians, etc etc etc

Go educate yourself and maybe then people will feel its worth their time to discuss your 'points'.

So you're saying that it follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do? You're saying That One Guy wasn't acing more like someone pissed over the fact that someone wasn't sharing his view of his religion, but more like someone willing to discuss how another was wrong in their understanding of his beliefs?

What I was saying is that there are certain problems that are inherent in organized religion in general. I admitted that I'm not an expert on UU, but from reading what they have on their site about their belief, operation, and formation, that they are going to fall into many of these too. Considering that the part of what I was saying that That One Guy seemed to have an issue with is my suggestion that UU believes in a god and that he doesn't actually question his own beliefs, but agreed that UU falls victim to the two things I listed as the main problems with organized religion leads me to believe that he's just trying to distance his viewset from that of other main churches in the world.

Was I wrong about some things I said? Yes, yes I was. But not once did someone say "here is where you are wrong, and here is the way things really are on this point". Sure, they don't follow one set of beliefs, and in a way it's actually wrong to try to call it a religion or a church... it's more like a clubhouse for people who agree that the underlying fundamentals for most world religions are a good idea and it would be nice if people would actually follow them, so let's get together and talk about how it's nice to have a belief set of some sorts.

And no, I'm not just ignorantly spouting bullshit. I've been sitting here the whole time reading the bylaws and rules that UU follows. Sure, I still don't have the worlds best grasp on it's current operation from a church service point of view, but I do know its origins and the way it operations from an organizational standpoint.

Well then do as you will, Rev. I'm just telling you how it appears from this side of the Intertubes... maybe you're right, or maybe you're being a schmuck, only you can know for sure.

[Rev Thwack]

Well then do as you will, Rev. I'm just telling you how it appears from this side of the Intertubes... maybe you're right, or maybe you're being a schmuck, only you can know for sure.

Then show me where I've messed up or gotten things wrong. If this truly is the one organized religion that meshes well because it lacks the trappings of organized religions then it would be nice to know, but from what I see it's really just more of an organization that falls for the two main problems I mentioned earlier while not being a real religion, but more of a support group for people who follow other religions but are frustrated with the organized side of them.

[Cramulus]

it might have been where you characterized UU as

"blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend"

or your sweeping generalization that everything with Judeo-Christian roots is Judeo-Christianity


or even that all organized religions are bad

(which though it may be true much of the time, do you really think it could be true 100% of the time? If so, what does that say about your evaluation criteria?)

it could even be that you're responding to TOA as if he said that UU "follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do". --Which I don't think he ever said, but you seem pretty hot on that issue


TOG said sure, UU has issues. And that he likes it anyway. It has different issues than other religions.

And then you called him a hypocrite

but personally I think you were the one missing the point.

[Rev Thwack]

it might have been where you characterized UU as

"blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend"

or your sweeping generalization that everything with Judeo-Christian roots is Judeo-Christianity

Doesn't have to be the judeo-christian god to still be a big imaginary friend. Any deity will do, and UU does seem to be a big collection of people who have different deities they believe in.

or even that all organized religions are bad

(which though it may be true much of the time, do you really think it could be true 100% of the time? If so, what does that say about your evaluation criteria?)

something can be bad in general without it being bad 100% of the time. Plus my argument isn't as much with general concepts provided but more with the implementations of those concepts.

it could even be that you're responding to TOA as if he said that UU "follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do". --Which I don't think he ever said, but you seem pretty hot on that issue

actually, my issue isn't with that, but with how he characterized UU as a religion that meshes great with discordianism... something I don't agree with and I guess should better explain why.

TOG said sure, UU has issues. And that he likes it anyway. It has different issues than other religions.

Actually he didn't say that he likes it that way, but said that he left it 15 years ago because of those issues. He said he kept only the fundamental teachings it was founded on... fundamental teachings that are pretty much the fundamental teachings of most other major world religions.

And then you called him a hypocrite

Yes, but only after he asked me to point out where he was being one.

but personally I think you were the one missing the point.

Possibly. I apparently have been doing a bad job at trying to express my main point too, that organized religion and discordianism are not really a good mix.

Organized religion builds off of a belief in a higher power or force. The problem with this is the belief aspect, since this belief is built on faith in the existence of a higher/supreme power. This existence is something that can not be either proven or disproved, but instead must be accepted without accompanying evidence. Now sure, if you don't want to seriously believe in one of the two you can combine them, but belief based off of blind faith is something that doesn't mesh with discordianism.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Wait, combine UU with discordianism?

Hmm....

"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"

Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.

Schmuck Assumption #1

UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.

Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on

Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.

These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.

This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption  #3.

I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...

[Roaring Biscuit!]

actually, my issue isn't with that, but with how he characterized UU as a religion that meshes great with discordianism... something I don't agree with and I guess should better explain why.

Possibly. I apparently have been doing a bad job at trying to express my main point too, that organized religion and discordianism are not really a good mix.

Organized religion builds off of a belief in a higher power or force. The problem with this is the belief aspect, since this belief is built on faith in the existence of a higher/supreme power. This existence is something that can not be either proven or disproved, but instead must be accepted without accompanying evidence. Now sure, if you don't want to seriously believe in one of the two you can combine them, but belief based off of blind faith is something that doesn't mesh with discordianism.

Not strictly true in my opinion, its been said billions of times there is no "true" discordianism either way, but there does seem to be a lot of "faith" put in Eris, so faith in a higher power, the fact that it is a chaotic higher power isn't really important for the demonstration.

Second point, the Curse of Greyface, was as you undoubtably know, to place to high a value on order, thus causing both creative and destructive order to be visited on mankind.  From my point of view it seems like you are focusing on disorder, and possibly falling into the same trap at the other end of the spectrum.

My view of discordianism (i have no view on UU) is that whether it is classed as a disorganised religion or not, is that it is focused on the individual i.e.

Discordianism is What Works For You.

just thoughts,

edd

[Cain]

I'd like to meet a Discordian Muslim.  Especially an Is'maili.  I have a proposition concerning the Aga Khan and the resumption of old traditions.

[Rev Thwack]

Wait, combine UU with discordianism?

Hmm....

"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"

Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.

Schmuck Assumption #1

UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.

UU seems to be a collection of members of various other religions/faiths that gather together under a different name/church for various reasons (if I'm wrong here, then let me know what it is instead). Most world religions believe in the existence of either a all-powerful being(s) or something more of a unifying force, which is really mostly the same thing only with less personification and/or direct control(feel free to argue against that if you want, and if so feel free to provide example religions). UU appears to pull actively from this, as stated in their bylaws
 

  The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

    * Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
    * Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion and the transforming power of love;
    * Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
    * Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
    * Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
    * Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Since such a thing, by it's default nature, can neither be proven or disproved, and since no scientific evidence can be gathered to support its existance, it falls more into the blind faith category.

I'd be happy to debate this further if you like, but I hardly see how this falls into the Schmuck Assumption category.

Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on

Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.

True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.

These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.

This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption  #3.

This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.

I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...

I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.