Tom Bombadil mystery solved?

[Richter]

To do:

shop up a che guevara t-shirt with Sarumon's face on it

I'll PM you a how - to for GIMP. 
Not Saruman though, I intend to Che Guevara, and t - shirt my own face. 

[Payne]

Can you PM that to me also?

[Kai]

Visualize:  Sauron = John McCain.  

That's a more "real world" view of it.  I've yet to read of a real army that marched to war "So the dark evil overlord won't eat my soul YET."

IIRC, in "The Sword of Shanarra", by Terry Brooks, the Troll armies serving Brena (the Big Bad), were explained to be serving him out of fealty and respect for Brena's coordination of their tribes.  
(Sword of Shanarra being one of my favorite LOTR ripoffs)

[Payne]

I like a few of the Shanara books too, actually. Elfstones especially.

Not the greatest writing, but good stories.

[Z³]

There are enough inconsistencies with the theory that its not really passable, the explanation for the creation of the nazgul (that they were numenorean kings corrupted by the nine rings, fallen under the sway of the one ring, becoming wraithlike and intangible) doesnt really allow for the witch king to have a double identity like bombadil, it is an entertaining hypothesis, its just a bit of a stretch.

Also, as for the Sauron as Rebel idea, I dont know about that either. If Tolkien has a fault its the harsh moral dichotomy in which his universe exists, there is some precedence for neutrality in the books (the dwarves definately, and to a lesser degree some of the elves), but sauron really just represents a corrupting evil. I think there is some argument for Morgoth as an underdog, in the sense that Illuvitar actually acounted for Morgoths disobedience as a way of building up some tension in his song, or whatever.

Although the humans involved in the conflict might be seen as kind of a special case. Mind you, most of the men of the west are not descended from the blood of Numenor at all, the last of it is found in the Rangers, and the Stewards of Gondor, the rest of mankind present in middle earth migrated from the east in the second age. While Gondor, and probably Rohan, generally view Mordor as an absolute evil... Saurons often portrayed as a skilled deciever, and one who can use the ambition of nations to lead them to their ruin (IE. Numenor). So while Sauron is portrayed in the books as being, essentially, evil... its worth noting that he wouldnt necessarily be recieved that way by the nations of the South, and of the East.

(actually, ALL of mankind originally migrated from the east, the numenoreans were just granted special privileges for sucking enough elf-dick, or whatever.)

[Cramulus]

Truer words were never spoken:

wtf? the word "faggotry" is now a photobucket TOS violation? THAT'S NEW.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I hate Photobucket.

[hooplala]

Just use Imageshack.us ... I've never had a problem with them.

[Richter]

There are enough inconsistencies with the theory that its not really passable, the explanation for the creation of the nazgul (that they were numenorean kings corrupted by the nine rings, fallen under the sway of the one ring, becoming wraithlike and intangible) doesnt really allow for the witch king to have a double identity like bombadil, it is an entertaining hypothesis, its just a bit of a stretch.

Also, as for the Sauron as Rebel idea, I dont know about that either. If Tolkien has a fault its the harsh moral dichotomy in which his universe exists, there is some precedence for neutrality in the books (the dwarves definately, and to a lesser degree some of the elves), but sauron really just represents a corrupting evil. I think there is some argument for Morgoth as an underdog, in the sense that Illuvitar actually acounted for Morgoths disobedience as a way of building up some tension in his song, or whatever.

Although the humans involved in the conflict might be seen as kind of a special case. Mind you, most of the men of the west are not descended from the blood of Numenor at all, the last of it is found in the Rangers, and the Stewards of Gondor, the rest of mankind present in middle earth migrated from the east in the second age. While Gondor, and probably Rohan, generally view Mordor as an absolute evil... Saurons often portrayed as a skilled deciever, and one who can use the ambition of nations to lead them to their ruin (IE. Numenor). So while Sauron is portrayed in the books as being, essentially, evil... its worth noting that he wouldnt necessarily be recieved that way by the nations of the South, and of the East.

(actually, ALL of mankind originally migrated from the east, the numenoreans were just granted special privileges for sucking enough elf-dick, or whatever.)

You could split hairs pretty endlessly about what the Ringwraith's exact abilities, or HOW MUCH shape they could take.  Sauron might have been another possible Bombadil, but it says explicitly later in the Silmarilion, and in LOTR, that he lost the ability to change shape after he took on the appearance of the Dark Lord after the fall of Numenor (A problem which Morgoth also had), and the ability to take form at all after he lsot the One Ring. 

The Numenoreans, IIRC, were part elven, descendents of Elrond's twin brother who chose to live mortal lives.  As such they were MOSTLY human, but still had some of the wisdom, grace, and long life of the elves.  Kind of makes you wonder about Aragorn and Arwen...   

[hooplala]

Sauron didn't lose the ability to change shape after he took on the appearance of the Dark Lord after the fall of Numenor IIRC, I believe he lost the ability to take on a 'fair form' to fool people with.  Bombadil might be considered, by some, a fair form.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I always thought Tom was the anthropomorphic entity of Middle Earth. IIRC he was supposed to be older than Sauron and the first thing that lived in Middle Earth. Since he wore the ring for awhile and it had no effect, I doubt he could be Sauron or a Ring Wraith... or anything equal to or less than Gandalf... since Gandalf was concerned thet Ring might be too powerful even for him. That means that either Tom was from somewhere/thing that was outside of the Rings etc (which seems sensible) or was a being that was over Gandalf... possibly Iluvatar...

Though, I still think he was the Middle Earth version of Gaia.

[Richter]

Sauron didn't lose the ability to change shape after he took on the appearance of the Dark Lord after the fall of Numenor IIRC, I believe he lost the ability to take on a 'fair form' to fool people with.  Bombadil might be considered, by some, a fair form.

That works too, but again, superceded by his inability to hold a form.  The "Necromancer" Gandalf faced in the dark tower in Mirkwood during "The Hobbit", contradicts this.  I'll have to retrieve my copies of everythign to properly check.  Leln has more detailed knowledge of Tolkein, and better memory overall, I'll throw this thread at her attn.

I always thought Tom was the anthropomorphic entity of Middle Earth. IIRC he was supposed to be older than Sauron and the first thing that lived in Middle Earth. Since he wore the ring for awhile and it had no effect, I doubt he could be Sauron or a Ring Wraith... or anything equal to or less than Gandalf... since Gandalf was concerned thet Ring might be too powerful even for him. That means that either Tom was from somewhere/thing that was outside of the Rings etc (which seems sensible) or was a being that was over Gandalf... possibly Iluvatar...

Though, I still think he was the Middle Earth version of Gaia.

During the Council at Rivendell I think they DID suggest trying to get Tom to take the Ring to Mt. Doom.  The idea got shot down when they realized he'd likely forget what he was up to half way. 

I like the idea of Tom as Iluvatar on some levels, that he just gets out, enjoys what's happening in the world he made, and randomly shacks up with a  hot elf.  In other ways it plays into the catch all of "There is a God, and he is a DICK." 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I always thought Tom was the anthropomorphic entity of Middle Earth. IIRC he was supposed to be older than Sauron and the first thing that lived in Middle Earth. Since he wore the ring for awhile and it had no effect, I doubt he could be Sauron or a Ring Wraith... or anything equal to or less than Gandalf... since Gandalf was concerned thet Ring might be too powerful even for him. That means that either Tom was from somewhere/thing that was outside of the Rings etc (which seems sensible) or was a being that was over Gandalf... possibly Iluvatar...

Though, I still think he was the Middle Earth version of Gaia.

During the Council at Rivendell I think they DID suggest trying to get Tom to take the Ring to Mt. Doom.  The idea got shot down when they realized he'd likely forget what he was up to half way. 

I like the idea of Tom as Iluvatar on some levels, that he just gets out, enjoys what's happening in the world he made, and randomly shacks up with a  hot elf.  In other ways it plays into the catch all of "There is a God, and he is a DICK." 

Did they try and get him to take to to Mt. Doom... or did they just talk about giving it to him for safe keeping?


"Iluvatar is busy playing skeeball in New Jersey"

[hooplala]

I recall that they were just going to give it to him to keep, not to take anywhere.  But they WERE afraid he would misplace it eventually... so the problem wouldn't be solved, just delayed.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I recall that they were just going to give it to him to keep, not to take anywhere.  But they WERE afraid he would misplace it eventually... so the problem wouldn't be solved, just delayed.

Yeah, that's what I thought... like the ring (and everything surrounding it) were so completely inconsequential to Tom that he couldn't be arsed to remember it. That supports, I think, the idea that he was Middle Earth (and unaffected by what happens to the people in it) or he was some very powerful being, well beyond the level of Gandalf, Saruman  etc.

Then again, it could just be a random character that Tolkien threw in there for kicks.