The worst thread

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I interpret kopyleft, anyone can print and sell any any issue. Not just the editor. Personally, I'm fine with that.

I'd like to print and sell Intermittens as a collection, when more issues are out... but at a not-for-profit price. I just want to see it out there. I suspect a lot of people want to see it out there.

I would propose that it be made clear that future issues of Intermittens are either kopyleft, meaning anyone can redistribute them without restrictions, or they are Creative Commons, or they are traditionally copyrighted with rights reverting to the authors, which IMO severely restricts what people can do.

How much of the art used in the existing Intermittens could be legally disputed if they were printed for profit?

[Cain]

Oh fuck off.  You're talking about using my efforts and work to make money for yourself and I'm expected to - what?  Be all polite and shit? 

If you want to actually discuss a mutually agreeable conclusion, yes.
If you'd prefer to demonize me for attempting to talk about cash, I'll just go back to swimming in the pool of money I've made by stealing everybody's ideas

(I hope that came across as a joke)

Hey, guess what asshole?  I'm broke.  Actually, I'm in debt.  I get barely enough money from the government to see to my needs (especially since my oh so loving parents take over 50% for rent) and a little extra on the side for a writing gig I sweated blood to even be considered for.

And nothing else.

So go ahead and keep joking about swimming pools of money.  I'm practically drowning here, my computer (which I need for that writing gig and to apply for over 90% of the jobs I find) is falling apart, my wardrobe is falling apart, I cant afford a social life or to even take my girlfriend on a date, and any extra cash would help, but you know, laugh it up.  Poverty and ripping off those with next to nothing in the first place is lulzy or something, right?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Cain, I'm not sure that's really fair. If Intermittens is truly kopyleft, that means that you, also, are free to have it printed and sell it for profit. No one has an exclusive right to do it, so why yell at Cram for being the issue up?

This actually should get worked through.

[Cain]

Cain, I'm not sure that's really fair. If Intermittens is truly kopyleft, that means that you, also, are free to have it printed and sell it for profit.

Oh?  And how am I going to fund this printing off and making money scheme?  I don't think China is currently buying peoples debt anymore, and shiny stones and leaves are apparently not legal tender.

The point is absurdly simple.  If money is being made off something I have contributed to, then I am due a cut of that money.  End of discussion.  Or else, don't include my work.  Ever.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Cain, I'm not sure that's really fair. If Intermittens is truly kopyleft, that means that you, also, are free to have it printed and sell it for profit.

Oh?  And how am I going to fund this printing off and making money scheme?  I don't think China is currently buying peoples debt anymore, and shiny stones and leaves are apparently not legal tender.

The point is absurdly simple.  If money is being made off something I have contributed to, then I am due a cut of that money.  End of discussion.  Or else, don't include my work.  Ever.

I don't know how you're going to get money for any venture, but that's beside the point.

If you want a cut of profits from anything you write, never make anything kopyleft. That's your right. If your work in Intermittens isn't kopyleft, this discussion is moot.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Ah oh... well this is some thread...

Ok, first off... let's be clear. Kopyleft is not a legal anything. It is meaningless except to Discordians. There are many creative commons licenses, Kopyleft is not a legal license. Traditionally, among Discordians Kopyleft has meant that the stuff is in the wild and good to go for whatever purpose. Kopyleft work has been sold by others, consider Loompanics or Steve Jackson Games or St. Syn, all three published 'for profit' versions of the PD, which they did mostly editing/formatting work to. As far as I know, none of the money from any of those versions went back to Kerry, Mal, Camden etc.

Secondly, there is no legal avenue to say "Oh I gave you permission to print that, but now, post-production I revoke the permission"... unless you're going to go to court, claim that Kopyleft is non-existent and therefore all Kopyleft material falls back to Copyright. Of course, even copyrighted, once permission has been given, it cannot be revoked. If permission was given... and there was a 'don't sell it' clause, then that's one thing... if there was no discussion before now, at best an author could sue to get part of the profits.

Of course, going to court to fight for that would cost far more than Intermittens will ever likely net.

Just so we're all clear on where past issues/content sits.
-----------------------------------------

In my opinion, selling Intermittens for profit is silly. It's Discordian diarrhea and while I think its good stuff... I would be pretty disappointed if I paid money to read it. If you print copies and charge to cover printing... or have a on-demand printer, that seems reasonable... but selling them for profit? They seem much more like the "Here have something free to read while you're on the commute today" kind of publications.

Cram, I don't care what you choose to do. My material is Kopyleft and free to buy, sell or steal... However, I do think that putting money on the table, for work that's been voluntary on the part of everyone, will probably bring Intermittens to a calamitous end in short order. AT the very least for existing issues of Intermittens, I'm not really sure it would be fair to sell them, since authors didn't have that information when submitting content to those issues (However, Kopyleft certainly would give strong support for it not being 'wrong')
--------------------------------------------

On the other hand, there is definately enough creative energy here, that we could probably produce a for-profit publication of some sort. Either as the future state of Intermittens or as a new product, based on our experiences with getting Intermittens off the ground. However, I think this should be clear before work is started. That way, authors can write content that would make sense or provide value to the purchasing public, rather than charging them for half formed forum posts (like a few of my pieces appear).

[Lies]

Ah oh... well this is some thread...

Ok, first off... let's be clear. Kopyleft is not a legal anything. It is meaningless except to Discordians. There are many creative commons licenses, Kopyleft is not a legal license. Traditionally, among Discordians Kopyleft has meant that the stuff is in the wild and good to go for whatever purpose. Kopyleft work has been sold by others, consider Loompanics or Steve Jackson Games or St. Syn, all three published 'for profit' versions of the PD, which they did mostly editing/formatting work to. As far as I know, none of the money from any of those versions went back to Kerry, Mal, Camden etc.

Secondly, there is no legal avenue to say "Oh I gave you permission to print that, but now, post-production I revoke the permission"... unless you're going to go to court, claim that Kopyleft is non-existent and therefore all Kopyleft material falls back to Copyright. Of course, even copyrighted, once permission has been given, it cannot be revoked. If permission was given... and there was a 'don't sell it' clause, then that's one thing... if there was no discussion before now, at best an author could sue to get part of the profits.

Of course, going to court to fight for that would cost far more than Intermittens will ever likely net.

Just so we're all clear on where past issues/content sits.
-----------------------------------------

In my opinion, selling Intermittens for profit is silly. It's Discordian diarrhea and while I think its good stuff... I would be pretty disappointed if I paid money to read it. If you print copies and charge to cover printing... or have a on-demand printer, that seems reasonable... but selling them for profit? They seem much more like the "Here have something free to read while you're on the commute today" kind of publications.

Cram, I don't care what you choose to do. My material is Kopyleft and free to buy, sell or steal... However, I do think that putting money on the table, for work that's been voluntary on the part of everyone, will probably bring Intermittens to a calamitous end in short order. AT the very least for existing issues of Intermittens, I'm not really sure it would be fair to sell them, since authors didn't have that information when submitting content to those issues (However, Kopyleft certainly would give strong support for it not being 'wrong')
--------------------------------------------

On the other hand, there is definately enough creative energy here, that we could probably produce a for-profit publication of some sort. Either as the future state of Intermittens or as a new product, based on our experiences with getting Intermittens off the ground. However, I think this should be clear before work is started. That way, authors can write content that would make sense or provide value to the purchasing public, rather than charging them for half formed forum posts (like a few of my pieces appear).

I don't think it's a sin to pay for Discordian diarrhea, after all, I paid for three copies of the principia discordia, the original Discordian diarrhea.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I want to throw out there that I am really not interested in working on any for-profit collaborative projects because IMO the legal and financial logistics introduce an element of tension and expectation that I don't find personally conducive to my enjoyment. Strife is all very well and good, but I prefer to keep it out of my creative life. I suspect that a for-profit version of Intermittens would be a death knell for the project, for a number of reasons. I don't personally see anything wrong with anyone printing the existing ones up and trying to sell them for enough to cover costs, but this was a volunteer project for everyone, and that means that expecting compensation for the time you've put into editing it is kind of silly. IMO.

For that matter, expecting to make any money at all from printing a zine of any kind is pretty... well... I'll call it romantic.

[Lies]

Ok... so, I'm wondering... What are the "Rights" involved here?

"legally", or whatever you want to call it, it's a creative commons kopyleft work, and it free to distribute and produce.

Now, anyone that produces this work and then wants to trade/sell/give away it can do that, and the next person who trades/buys/received the work gets all the same rights as the first person, correct?

Or are they bound by some sort of legal contract that they can't make a profit off other peoples work even if its free for everyone to do with what they want?

Or have I missed something entirely here?

[Lies]

I want to throw out there that I am really not interested in working on any for-profit collaborative projects because IMO the legal and financial logistics introduce an element of tension and expectation that I don't find personally conducive to my enjoyment. Strife is all very well and good, but I prefer to keep it out of my creative life. I suspect that a for-profit version of Intermittens would be a death knell for the project, for a number of reasons. I don't personally see anything wrong with anyone printing the existing ones up and trying to sell them for enough to cover costs, but this was a volunteer project for everyone, and that means that expecting compensation for the time you've put into editing it is kind of silly. IMO.

For that matter, expecting to make any money at all from printing a zine of any kind is pretty... well... I'll call it romantic.

In reality, I doubt this will make any money at all, but as far as I see it, its a chance to get mags made for free and in exchange for the service they sell it and split the profits.
I can't possibly lose, and so if anything is made out of it, I want to share the money fairly.

That's *if* I do this at all.
Or *if* I don't just go ahead and do it anyway and keep all the money for myself...
I mean, *I* can do that right?

No, I wouldn't want to do that, but I don't want this community fighting and bickering over what may be meager pickings of something that I'm only throwing out as an idea...

But I understand it wouldn't be right if I suddenly made a hit magazine and it became an underground success and made a few thousand dollars that people I know that made the mag possible shouldn't see that come back to them in some way...

But lets not get ahead of ourselves here.
Seriously, who do you think will want to *buy* our crap?

[Lyris_Nymphetamine]

im not all that familiar with intermittens but i think if you were to print it it should be printed by PD and all the money going to simply the production of it, making it so no one profits from production.

on that note, i guess i should read intermittens.

[Lies]

Coming soon: How Lys Accidently (?) Killed Intermittens FOREVER. 

[Richter]

But lets not get ahead of ourselves here.
Seriously, who do you think will want to *buy* our crap?

"They may be Pink, but their money is still green"

Is there an "At cost" option?  They sell it for what the printer charges, no cut for the PD end?  (Albeit with a big "Find this, and MORE, for FREE at: " on it.)

[Faust]

Coming soon: How Lys Accidently (?) Killed Intermittens FOREVER. 

typical.

[Faust]

It makes sense that if cain does not want his material distributed for a profit (or without him having a cut) then that should be edited from whichever issue is being sold. Its his right as a contributer to do as he pleases with his material.
It would be really shit if this caused problems down the line for intermittens (as group activities involving any money at all always do) and I really don't want something like this to drive away cain.