The worst thread

[P3nT4gR4m]

This fread is a fucking toolbox. I was all "fair enough" until I had a think about it last night and you know what? GET A FUCKING GRIP ON REALITY!

This is shit we type on the internets. If you think you can make money on something you've written then go make some fucking money on it. Don't post it in a goddamn message board. Here's the deal - I will use whatever the hell I goddamn well please for #6 (permission or not) If you aint happy with this guess what - that's right you can go fuck yourself. Or grow the fuck up, one of the two.

I'm not planning on making money from it, you sure as hell don't seem to be. If someone else manages it then well fucking done that guy. You want to get all butthurt cos you never thought of it then be my guest but FFS we're not talking the great american novel here and if we are then save it on an encrypted hard drive an guard it with your life. Don't broadcast it in cyberspace, don't expect some joke hippy play on the word "copyright" to somehow protect you.

[AFK]

All I ask is if any of this gets made into a movie that I am played by either Michael Keaton or Sandra Bullock. 

[bds]

This fread is a fucking toolbox. I was all "fair enough" until I had a think about it last night and you know what? GET A FUCKING GRIP ON REALITY!

This is shit we type on the internets. If you think you can make money on something you've written then go make some fucking money on it. Don't post it in a goddamn message board. Here's the deal - I will use whatever the hell I goddamn well please for #6 (permission or not) If you aint happy with this guess what - that's right you can go fuck yourself. Or grow the fuck up, one of the two.

I'm not planning on making money from it, you sure as hell don't seem to be. If someone else manages it then well fucking done that guy. You want to get all butthurt cos you never thought of it then be my guest but FFS we're not talking the great american novel here and if we are then save it on an encrypted hard drive an guard it with your life. Don't broadcast it in cyberspace, don't expect some joke hippy play on the word "copyright" to somehow protect you.

Quoted For Fucking Troof.

However, I think we all need to calm down ITT. I mean, most of this stuff is all theoretitical anyway, and I highly doubt that anyone will make much money off Intermittens anyway. No offence or anything, btw.

[LMNO]

What the fuck?

I go away for a week, and this happens?

I would have thought you'd have thought this through, people.

To be clear, by "people", I mean Cram and those who agree with his statement, "I was gonna split my profits with Telarus."

Or, as it was interpreted by myself, "I'm gonna take the creative efforts that people donated and try to make a buck off it."

To not even consider that the contributers might like to have some sort of compensation is bizarre.

Back in the day when I was a music editor, we didn't have much money to offer writers.  But what we did have were free CDs, access to shows and interviews, the occasional keg from Harpoon Breweries, and a chance for a writer to see their names in print.  We gave the writers what we could, often at the expense of our dinner some weeks.  What we didn't do was tell them to buy their own albums, give them to us for free, at which point we'd turn around and pocket any ad revenue for ourselves.

It doesn't matter how much (or little) post-production profit can be made.  As is often the case, it's the principle of the matter that counts here.  Even if a writer got just a dime after it was all over, they deserved that dime.

Not to mention the precedent that has just been sent.  For example, I'm very excited about what had been happening with the Chao te Ching project; so much so that I think I've already banged out twenty or so chapters.  But now I have to think, "what if Cram decides to publish this thing, and pocket the profits with the layout guy?"  And that makes me reluctant to continue my work.


When I read this thread, my first reaction was to refuse to partcipate in the Intermittens project, and to ask for my writings to be removed.  But I have decided to be an example, instead.

LET IT BE KNOWN, that I intend to continue Intermittens Shin, the issue.

HOWEVER, once it is completed and posted on intermittens.org, I intend to pay each writer $0.01 a word.  So, write a couple of paragraphs, and I'll send you a dollar if it gets into the issue. Write a fantastic conspiracy theory, you'll be able to afford a six-pack.  Write a dissertation, and dinner's on me.*

That doesn't mean I'll pay anyone just for sending me some content.  As the editor, I have a thumbs up/thumbs down decision whether it goes in or not.  If I feel that it's too long, i will ask the author to trim it, rather than do it myself.  If the piece gets into the issue, I'll paypal what I owe you.

FURTHERMORE, If (if, indeed) the issue actually goes to print, and if it generates profit after production costs are met, all profits will be divided in a percentage equal to the percentage of the issue the writer contributed to.  So, if you wrote one page of a ten-page issue, you get 10% of any profits.

You might notice I don't make money off of this.  That's because I feel the contributers are more important than the publishers. Until an Intermittens business model can be proven as profitable, I don't get paid.  In fact, I lose money.

Welcome to the world of publishing.

















*Due to the variable nature of art, all graphics will be negotiated beforehand.

[Cramulus]

"Nobody wants to feel screwed. Nobody is trying to screw anybody else. Many of us are poor. Some of us are entrepeneurs. I don't have all the answers, but there's gotta be a way for us to reach a good model. We're making this up as we go along."

For the record, it's never been my intention to sell anybody's work if it would piss them off. Telarus and I started to format IM for magcloud.com, but have been too distracted to really get it set up. Just so it doesn't seem like I'm keeping secrets, when we approached that hurdle, I was going to contact all the writers and make sure stuff was cool. I don't have a problem AT ALL with sending people some cash if I'm going to be making cash.

My posts earlier in this thread sounded to some like I was going to screw everybody for profit and laugh my way to the bank. If that was the effect, I misspoke and I apologize. I thought I made it clear, above, that I believe in fair compensation for creative efforts, but I'm requoting it for posterity.

This has been a weird period for me. I'm poor too, and a little bit of this crazy entrepeneur Phinneas Poxwattle got into me. I thought I could make a few bucks (read: enough money to buy a sick pack) by selling Intermittens, but I now realize that it's folly to try to profit off of it. At the outset of this thread, my impression was "let's discuss things, I bet if I tossed the writers a few bucks, they'd be fine with their work being sold. After all, I'd be flattered if someone actually sold my work." Not everybody feels that way, and that's acceptable. It was never my intent to violate people's IP or to sell work without permission. To date I have made $0 and will continue to make $0. If you've been screwed, you've gotten screwed out of $0.



a bit of background--
For me, one of the sources of this confusion is the If It's Not Kopyleft thread. It wasn't until we discussed this (about three months after the first issue came out) that I was really well acqainted with the details of creative commons licenses. Prior, I assumed that "Kopyleft" meant something like "commercial share alike", and that by marking your stuff Kopyleft ("all rights reversed"!), you were actually declaring it was A-OK to sell it. Live and learn. Now we know that Kopyleft is kind of meaningless, because it means different things to different people, and I restate my opinion that we should bulldoze the Kopyleft Authors thread and restart a Creative Commons thread. it will alleviate MUCH of this confusion in the future hail eris.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Creative Disorder = Intermittens
Destructive Order = Worrying about which license your spaggoty Internet ramblings are under...
Result = Bad Trip

[LMNO]

Cram, I think the fatal flaw was that you didn't say, "I bet if I toss the writers a few bucks, they'd be ok" in the opening posts.

You specifically said, "If I make a profit, I'll be splitting it between myself and Telarus."  You explicitly excluded the writers.

If you didn't mean it that way, I have no problem with that.



Rat, I don't think the main issue is about licensing.  I think it's about fairness, and respect.




Incidentally to everyone else, my offer on Intermittens Shin is still good.

[Triple Zero]

Creative Disorder = Intermittens
Destructive Order = Worrying about which license your spaggoty Internet ramblings are under...
Result = Bad Trip

for fuck's sake, Rat, as been repeatedly pointed out, it's the *lack* of clearness about licensing that started this shit.

A Creative Commons license is not something to "worry about", but is in fact one of the easiest ways to get a simple and clear for everybody to understand grip on your intellectual property rights. It's "creative order" to take ones responsibility as an author and be explicit and clear about these things, and it's "destructive disorder" to let it be open for confusion.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Creative Disorder = Intermittens
Destructive Order = Worrying about which license your spaggoty Internet ramblings are under...
Result = Bad Trip

for fuck's sake, Rat, as been repeatedly pointed out, it's the *lack* of clearness about licensing that started this shit.

A Creative Commons license is not something to "worry about", but is in fact one of the easiest ways to get a simple and clear for everybody to understand grip on your intellectual property rights. It's "creative order" to take ones responsibility as an author and be explicit and clear about these things, and it's "destructive disorder" to let it be open for confusion.

for fuck's sake TripleZero, as been repeatedly pointed out WORRYING ABOUT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS OF INTERNET POSTS AND DISCORDIAN POOP IS WHAT STARTED THIS SHIT.

I think Intermittens is a great bit of Discordian propaganda, a fantastic way to record Discordian thought is a manner that might survive and someday be useful for future generations of Discordians to see what spaggoty shit we were spewing back in the day. I think Cram is nuts to believe that people would pay more than $0.25 for an issue of Intermittens. I think some other people may be nuts for thinking that they should protect their Internet posts like the next great NYT Bestseller. As nuts, if not more nuts, than RIAA... at least their IP already makes money and they have contracts etc in place.

Intermittens 1 is almost, if not entirely made of up posts from this forum. Random posts collected together by Manta Obscura and formatted by Cramulus and Telarus. It's not like we authors spent days working toward a deadline or bleeding out those words to make rent for the month. They were free expressions of ideas, speeches made on stumps and soap boxes, for fun and ego and bragging rights. No one expected to make money on those posts. Months ago I pointed out that Kopyleft wasn't a legal thing... and peope continued to release their work under it, from here that appears like they weren't really worried about their IP...

Until someone invoked Mammon.

Creative Commons is great. If people think their random poopings on this forum need to be protected, they should use a Creative Commons style license and MARK EVERY POST.

Or, they can get over it and have a nice time posting on an Internet forum and not worrying about Cramulus and his imaginary $10.00 profit.

You can see it however you like. That is how I see it.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Ratatosk seems to me to be the only person ITT standing anywhere close to a motorcycle.

Fking licensing laws and publishing rights on web forum posts - listen to yourselves! 

[hooplala]

If anyone makes a single dollar off of any issue of Intermittens I will eat a medium sized hat.

[LMNO]

for fuck's sake TripleZero, as been repeatedly pointed out WORRYING ABOUT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS OF INTERNET POSTS AND DISCORDIAN POOP IS WHAT STARTED THIS SHIT.

Wrong.

What "started this shit" is that someone mis-spoke, and said they were going to sell someone else's work and keep the profit for themselves.

It wasn't about "creative commons" or "kopyleft", it was about recognition, respect, and fairness.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Not that I have ever contributed anything that I expected money for....  Just a "For the Record" statement before I get the who the fuck do I think I am comment.

There is a BIG difference between writing something for an internet magazine and a print magazine.  There are, I am sure, legal issues that should be considered.  You know, things with really ugly names like slander, libel, LAWSUIT!!  On the net, there is a degree of deniability that isn't there once something is in print.

As far as making a profit on these issues.  I have to agree that if there is a "profit" beyond publishing costs, then it should be shared among the contributors or put toward future issues, donated to the site, something.  I don't agree that the editor of the issue "owns" that issue and can make the decisions about it alone.  This was a group project and it should be a group decision.

Maybe we should get a few people who don't contribute to oversee the distribution and such?

We could have contributors sign releases for their work?  That might be an option.  

I just think Intermittens is one of the best things that we've done here at PD and I would hate to see it die.  

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This fread is a fucking toolbox. I was all "fair enough" until I had a think about it last night and you know what? GET A FUCKING GRIP ON REALITY!

This is shit we type on the internets. If you think you can make money on something you've written then go make some fucking money on it. Don't post it in a goddamn message board. Here's the deal - I will use whatever the hell I goddamn well please for #6 (permission or not) If you aint happy with this guess what - that's right you can go fuck yourself. Or grow the fuck up, one of the two.

I'm not planning on making money from it, you sure as hell don't seem to be. If someone else manages it then well fucking done that guy. You want to get all butthurt cos you never thought of it then be my guest but FFS we're not talking the great american novel here and if we are then save it on an encrypted hard drive an guard it with your life. Don't broadcast it in cyberspace, don't expect some joke hippy play on the word "copyright" to somehow protect you.

Are you serious? Are you seriously, for one thing, calling any and all creative works shared in whole or in part on this forum "shit we type on the internets"? Because a lot of it is, but a lot of the things people post are essays, stories, poems, art etc. that they did not write here, did not write for here, and are intended for later use in their own projects. If you want to reduce those posts to "shit we type on the internets"... well, I think that's unbelievably insulting to everyone who has posted an art or writing project out of a desire to share with/gain feedback from a community they care about and respect.

Are you really going to "I will use whatever the hell you goddamn well please (permission or not)"? Not only is that disrespectful in the extreme, it's illegal as hell. By law, everything I write, including this post, is copyrighted to me, and unless I release my rights by explicitly saying so, you can't legally reprint it. But the legal aspect isn't the one that bothers me... it's the complete and utter disrespect of that statement. Are you going to print Roger's rants without permission? Fred's art? Cain and Kai's essays? LMNO's fiction? If that happens, the inevitable end result of such a slap in the face is the end of this project and upheaval of this community.

You can consider everything you post here internet ramblings, discordian poop or whatever you want, but don't denigrate the efforts and contributions of people who take their writing more seriously, and happen to share some of it here.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

for fuck's sake TripleZero, as been repeatedly pointed out WORRYING ABOUT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS OF INTERNET POSTS AND DISCORDIAN POOP IS WHAT STARTED THIS SHIT.

Wrong.

What "started this shit" is that someone mis-spoke, and said they were going to sell someone else's work and keep the profit for themselves.

It wasn't about "creative commons" or "kopyleft", it was about recognition, respect, and fairness.

Recognition, Fairness and Respect over posts on an internet forum that span months if not years...

Cramulus had every article tagged with recognition, its called a byline. People stated that their content was Kopyleft, even though we have had discussions on what that legally means, or doesn't mean in the past. Other Kopyleft material, like the PD, has been collected, formatted and then sold for profit... I think it was perfectly fair for Cramulus to expect that he could profit from his work in formatting (bad idea, but fair assumption) etc. As for Respect, Cram picked out those pieces because he felt they were excellent examples of what Discordia is like in 2009... out of the thousands and thousands of posts on this forum, he picked out a handful... How much more RESPECT do you need?

It seems insulting to me, that you appear to presume that Recognition, Respect and Fairness is measured in $.