The BIP is not a Discordian work: discuss

[Arafelis]

The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.

Hey, I'm sorry.  

I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.  

I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway.  That's kinda disingenuous.  Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal.  Or, I dunno.  Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.

The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something.  Specifically, it's selling us fnord.

Here's what the first page of the BIP says, but I'm going to help you see the fnords.  Some of them.

You think you just woke up here one day, right? FNORD Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I'll be here when you get back.

Looks smaller than it is, don't it? Sometimes, it doesn't even feel all that bad. But stillÉ You look through those FNORD bars, and you see all that you're FNORD missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the FNORD bars, let me show you something.

FNORD Feel that? That's all the books you've read. And that entire FNORD wall over there is your adolescence. Look FNORD up: It's your CD collection. The FNORD floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It's your life, it's the FNORD cold FNORD trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a FNORD corner.

So, now you're wondering why you feel FNORD trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the FNORD bars of a Black Iron FNORD Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and FNORD bang. You smacked your head against the FNORD wall.

What's that? Yeah. That's when the FNORD claustrophobia sets in. When you didn't know you were FNORD trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, FNORD tired, FNORD monotonous life stretch out before you, FNORD trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It's just abject FNORD FNORD panic that you're feeling right now. Some even say that this is what FNORD death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and FNORD unfeeling to what you FNORD really want.

Look around you. Look at these cold, FNORD black bars. The FNORD colorless ceiling. The FNORD hard ground. FNORD That's your universe. That's the world you're going to be living in for the FNORD rest of your life here in FNORD Prison. You're going to live out your life in FNORD quiet FNORD desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, FNORD long or FNORD short, it'll feel the same. FNORD Dead, unchanging.

So, if you're interested, I'd like to invite you to a jailbreak... (DRONF!) Just turn around.

It's bad juju, man.  We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively?  This is our left-foot path.

But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian.  This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there.  The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them.  This is black magic written by Good Charlotte.  You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.

Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't.  Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs?  Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless.  Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal?  Then drop the wolfman mask.

Hail Eris.  But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.

[Nast]

Ummm...the tone of the BIP is intentionally unsettling. It's a big part of the delivery.

Are you saying that because it isn't fluffy hippy mumbo-jumbo it isn't "Discordian"? If so, please step back for a moment and rebuke yourself for such a flagrant oversight. Thank you.

[Arafelis]

I am not.

[Nast]

Good, because we get lots those!

But what do you mean by the BIP running contrary to the spirit of Discordianism?

[Arafelis]

You've claimed to be 16 on these boards.  Is this accurate?

If you're comfortable with it, I'm also curious what gender you consider yourself.  (Your posts indicate androgyny; is this an accurate gender assessment?)  I am not concerned with your sex.

I'm asking because your post content is not significant enough for me to build a profile, and my initial post is clearly insufficient to communicate with you.  I'm not interested in talking over or around you.  My next query, regardless of the answers to the previous two, will be how much of the 'background' Discordian material you're familiar with (The writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism, the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org, etc.  Semiotics and experimental linguistics would be on the list, but your post content does touch on those subjects).  If there's something else you think would be more relevant instead, please share that.

[Nast]

I'm a little disturbed that you want me to give background information about myself in response to a question about an earlier post. But I'll go along with it. I am in fact 16. And gender, er, well, I don't give that sort of thing much thought. Doesn't weigh on my mind much. So let's just say androgynous. I've read RAW and both the original and refurbished and POEE site. I do have a passing interest in linguistics. I enjoy Japanese traditional arts and assorted custard desserts. Any more information and you'll have to buy me lunch.

Anyway, back to the original topic: The thing I was confused about is that you seem to believe that the way in which the BIP uses fnords offensively makes in not quite Discordian. What is it about using fnords to affect others and their thought processes unDiscordian? Is it so even when the intent is to alter their thought processes towards a more liberated state?

[Scribbly]

You've claimed to be 16 on these boards.  Is this accurate?

If you're comfortable with it, I'm also curious what gender you consider yourself.  (Your posts indicate androgyny; is this an accurate gender assessment?)  I am not concerned with your sex.

I'm asking because your post content is not significant enough for me to build a profile, and my initial post is clearly insufficient to communicate with you.  I'm not interested in talking over or around you.  My next query, regardless of the answers to the previous two, will be how much of the 'background' Discordian material you're familiar with (The writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism, the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org, etc.  Semiotics and experimental linguistics would be on the list, but your post content does touch on those subjects).  If there's something else you think would be more relevant instead, please share that.

You don't need to know everything about a person to talk to them. Surprisingly, because I am capable of using language, I am capable of expressing quite complicated ideas to a broad audience, people who I may never know at all! This is why we have things like 'the written word'. It's pretty astounding, I know.

Regardless. I'm interested in your dismissal, and the rather strange way you are choosing to go about challenging the assertion that the BIP isn't a Discordian work. Since you seem to think this is relevent; I'm very familiar with the background material referenced, excluding Taoism.

Discordian works, however, are a particular subset of the broader context, so the rest is only arguably related. It has been established, I think, that the majority of people here believe the primary characteristic of Discordian work to be an attempt to broaden the horizons of readers (who we may never meet or know in any real sense!) outside of the general assumptions that they live their daily lives in.

You could consider it fighting FNORDS with FNORDS if you like. But I suspect if you keep using that terminology, you might get lynched. 

[Triple Zero]

The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.

Hey, I'm sorry.  

I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.  

I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway.  That's kinda disingenuous.  Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal.  Or, I dunno.  Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.

The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something.  Specifically, it's selling us fnord.

Here's what the first page of the BIP says, but I'm going to help you see the fnords.  Some of them.

You think you just woke up here one day, right? FNORD Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I’ll be here when you get back.

Looks smaller than it is, don’t it? Sometimes, it doesn’t even feel all that bad. But stillÉ You look through those FNORD bars, and you see all that you’re FNORD missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the FNORD bars, let me show you something.

FNORD Feel that? That’s all the books you’ve read. And that entire FNORD wall over there is your adolescence. Look FNORD up: It’s your CD collection. The FNORD floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It’s your life, it’s the FNORD cold FNORD trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a FNORD corner.

So, now you’re wondering why you feel FNORD trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the FNORD bars of a Black Iron FNORD Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and FNORD bang. You smacked your head against the FNORD wall.

What’s that? Yeah. That’s when the FNORD claustrophobia sets in. When you didn’t know you were FNORD trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, FNORD tired, FNORD monotonous life stretch out before you, FNORD trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It’s just abject FNORD FNORD panic that you’re feeling right now. Some even say that this is what FNORD death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and FNORD unfeeling to what you FNORD really want.

Look around you. Look at these cold, FNORD black bars. The FNORD colorless ceiling. The FNORD hard ground. FNORD That’s your universe. That’s the world you’re going to be living in for the FNORD rest of your life here in FNORD Prison. You’re going to live out your life in FNORD quiet FNORD desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, FNORD long or FNORD short, it’ll feel the same. FNORD Dead, unchanging.

So, if you’re interested, I’d like to invite you to a jailbreak... (DRONF!) Just turn around.

It's bad juju, man.  We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively?  This is our left-foot path.

But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian.  This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there.  The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them.  This is black magic written by Good Charlotte.  You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.

Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't.  Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs?  Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless.  Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal?  Then drop the wolfman mask.

Hail Eris.  But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.

I would really appreciate if you could try to make this point again without using the word Fnord. The PD itself only uses the word as a nonsense word, but you seem to be going with the "invisible word signifiying unconscious discomfort" as put forth in the Illuminatus Trilogy, which is a work of fiction and weaves a rather specific concept partly borrowed from 1984 into the overall conspiracy story of the book, and then, as an afterthought attaches the word Fnord from the PD to this concept.

Now that it's a work of fiction doesn't really matter of course, the PD itself isn't entirely factual either But it would help if we had an idea exactly up until where you are going along with the (still rather vague) definition of the word in the conspiracy story of the Illuminatus trilogy (I presume that you consider the bit about little kids being brainwashed in schools with "you cant see the fnords or they will eat you" as untrue, for instance).

This is one reason why it would be useful if you could reformulate your argument in modern day language. Another reason is that quite a number of the people on this board have never read the Illuminatus Trilogy, actually there's a good amount of them that have never read the entire PD either. Still some of them consider themselves Discordians, and some of their opinions are considered valuable.

The third and IMO most important reason is that being able to formulate your argument without "Discordian Jargon" shows that you actually are aware of what you are specifically trying to express, that you are capable of thinking for yourself and having critical thoughts about your own opinions and not just parrotting someone else's words and ideas.

And as for your reading list. A lot of us disagree at least in part with some or more of the concepts explained in the writings of RAW, Leary's works, Taoism and the contents of either the original or refurbished POEE.org (and the PD and the I3 and the Schrodinger Cat Trilogy and Quantum Psychology and Prometheus Rising and ...) there are some really cool ideas in there, but you are generally better off describing them in your own words than saying "If you had read Leary, you'd know that in the 7th circuit molecular DNA consciousness, telepathy through time is in fact possible" because that will be met with ummm .. well

Semiotics however, are cool (IMO). You'll find that there are a couple of cunning linguists at this forum that can discuss this subject with a high level of background knowledge. The point however is that the scientific field of semiotics is transparent about separating the unproven theories from the proven and the false ones.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal?

No.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Thank christ! Finally, someone has arrived who's obviously qualified to teach us all how to be really real discordians. For realness!

Face it everyone - it's what this board needs. In fact it's way overdue.

Please do as it asks and provide as much personal information as is required to assist the expert in their wisdom impartation.

I'm a 50ft tall lesbian trapped in a mans body with a slight speech impediment and a chainsaw fetish - what am I doing wrong? How do I become a proper discordian?

[Cainad (dec.)]

Yes, because one party needs to have personal information about the other in order for there to be effective discussion! But only one, of course.


I'm a houseplant with an interest in geoscience. My hobbies include origami, reading, and welcoming our new all-knowing Discordian overlords.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The BIP isn't exactly a Discordian work.

Hey, I'm sorry.  

I dunno what for yet, but I think I'm going to get told soon.  

I might be sorry that I didn't pick a side, but I'm selling a case anyway.  That's kinda disingenuous.  Or I might be sorry that I'm criticizing the BIP, because I've definitely never put up my own Discordian works on a site, and I do think that's a pretty noble goal.  Or, I dunno.  Maybe I'm sorry that I'm going to opine that there are things that really fnordaren't Discordian, which runs counter to the spirit of the movement.

The BIP isn't exactly Discordian because it's selling us something.  Specifically, it's selling us fnord.

Discordian works can't sell something? Really? The Illuminatus Triliogy isn't selling something? "Reality Is What You Can Get Away With" isn't selling something? Cosmic Trigger, Angel Tech, Zenarchy... not selling eh?

It's bad juju, man.  We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively?  This is our left-foot path.

One requires both feet to walk.

But here's the deal: That doesn't quite make it not-Discordian.  This was written by someone who knows there are fnords out there.  The thing is, I'm not sold they can really see them.  This is black magic written by Good Charlotte.  You've got the candles and you've a candance and I hope to somebody's God you remembered the salt, but I'd still bet against you on demons showing up.

Even Egrigores need a day off sometimes.

Until you know what you want, you can only get things you don't.  Do you want to chase them out of the darkness with the slavering jaws of FNORDs?  Then you're going to need to be a lot more ruthless.  Do you want to play the kindly woodsman like Omar and Mal?  Then drop the wolfman mask.

Hail Eris.  But hot or cold, man, or she's gonna spit it out.

I wouldn't tell Eris what she likes... I did that once and well, it wasn't pretty.

[Cainad (dec.)]

It's bad juju, man.  We know the fnords are out there, but using them offensively?  This is our left-foot path.

One requires both feet to walk.

Also also also...







FALSE DICHOTOMY!
    \





Sorry, I just love saying that.

[Triple Zero]

Quiet you guys, this guy here is out of the box and just doesnt need a crowbar anymore.

He'd probably prefer if you put away the torches and pitchforks too.

HE'S OUT OF THE FUCKING BOX

[Thurnez Isa]

Nah
probably just hopped into Thurnley's and Hill's box