Two Great Works - One Bizarre Thread

[I_Kicked_Kennedy]

Ok, per request in the Afterbirth, I think we should start a discussion about the Invisibles...


....aaaaannnd:

Gravity's Rainbow.

If you've read one or both of them, please introduce topics of conversation as they strike you, and I will try to put up jpegs of the Invisibles or post sections of Pynchon's text when I get a chance.

Don't ask me why I merged such mammoth pieces into one thread. I don't know man, I didn't do it.

To begin, I feel there is a theme both are exploring when they discuss the "oppressive regimes" that are behind much of the conspiracy. The manner in which they see some comfort in that they are only giving the hurf-durfs exactly what they want by imposing their methods:

...look at the forms of capitalist expression. Pornographies: pornographies of love, erotic love, Christian love, boy-and-his-dog, pornographies of sunsets, pornographies of killing, and pornographies of deduction -- ahh that sigh when we guess the murderer -- all these novels, these films and songs they lull us with, they're approaches, more comfortable and less so, to that Absolute Comfort.
(page 155)

Thoughts...?

[Epimetheus]

I read Invisibles. I liked it. The third volume's change in art I didn't like.
In terms of plot, something I noticed that was hardly explicitly touched in the books was the fact that King Mob and the Invisibles were almost exactly like the Outer Church in their methods and views, except for being opposed to each other. Neither one by the end of the story could really be called "good" or "bad", because they seemed so similar...except, of course, that Morrison makes the Invisibles more likable.
One of the bad guys from the Church mentioned this, said something about how both the Church and Mob's group wanted total control over people's minds and lives, they just wanted to do different things with the control, and Mob silenced him by some snarky comment and violence. Then it wasn't mentioned again by anyone.

[Template]

I read Invisibles. I liked it. The third volume's change in art I didn't like.
In terms of plot, something I noticed that was hardly explicitly touched in the books was the fact that King Mob and the Invisibles were almost exactly like the Outer Church in their methods and views, except for being opposed to each other. Neither one by the end of the story could really be called "good" or "bad", because they seemed so similar...except, of course, that Morrison makes the Invisibles more likable. trol, and Mob silenced him by some snarky comment and violence. Then it wasn't mentioned again by anyone.

"methods and views"?
How do their views compare?

To wit: "this is a rescue mission".  It's incredibly hard to raise forces to let people keep doing what they want.

[Soylent Green]

link to the invisibles?

[Triple Zero]

try torrent.

[The Wizard]

Currently reading Invisibles. Getting a similar headtrip to when I read Illuminatus. Odd thoughts, seeing shit, and not able to stop fucking reading.
Good times.

[Template]

I read Invisibles. I liked it. The third volume's change in art I didn't like.
In terms of plot, something I noticed that was hardly explicitly touched in the books was the fact that King Mob and the Invisibles were almost exactly like the Outer Church in their methods and views, except for being opposed to each other. Neither one by the end of the story could really be called "good" or "bad", because they seemed so similar...except, of course, that Morrison makes the Invisibles more likable. trol, and Mob silenced him by some snarky comment and violence. Then it wasn't mentioned again by anyone.

"methods and views"?
How do their views compare?

To wit: "this is a rescue mission".  It's incredibly hard to raise forces to let people keep doing what they want.

Put another way: Outer Church recruits by raping a critter on a cross until it mutates.  As far as I can tell, the critter didn't sign up for that shit.  Invisible College goes, hey, join us on our Magical Manslaughter Tour, so everyone can live in yellow submarines of their own choosing!

Maybe there's no distinction, but my impression was that it's the difference between being lost in endless possibility and just being lost.

[Cain]

Bump.

Remind me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Morrison claim near the end of the third volume that the Outer Church and the Invisible College are one and the same?  Maybe I just imagined it, but I'll go looking later on.

[Z³]

Bump.

Remind me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Morrison claim near the end of the third volume that the Outer Church and the Invisible College are one and the same?  Maybe I just imagined it, but I'll go looking later on.

That was the impression I got.
Also several characters throughout the books say that the war is just a game. One of the major themes that I got from the book was King Mobs entrapment by this, his negative Karma as a killer is alluded to several times, and in the end his inability to break free of his karmic cycle kills him.  A similar theme exists in Sword of Doom.

Although there it can be said that there is little doubt the techniques of the outer church are more horrific, the invisible college still achieves its end through the murder of human beings, something which is alluded to frequently: especially the issue which is entirely about the life of the soldier that Jack Frost is forced to kill, and his subsequent references to the guilt he feels over this throughout the series.

IMO, Jack Frost is kind of meant to be a fulcrum between the two groups, as he tries to reject the invisible college several times throughout the series. Also, he doesn't usually seem to take the 'war' too seriously, although this changes around the middle of the second book.