Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?

[LMNO]

To be honest I was leaning that way too, I was just trying to be clever.

You know, the whole "arbitrary game rules imposed by religious authority" vs. "built into the human nervous system after millions of years of evolution" thing.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't know, it just seems like as a social species that live in large congregations and depend highly on each other for our daily needs, that a system where we help each other will benefit everyone rather than pretending we're all our own little separate isolated tribes with nothing but self reliance to save us (while hypocritically drinking our starbucks coffee every morning and eating beef from argentina and rice from china for dinner and chocolate from east africa afterwards).

I agree completely with what you say here Kai... with two caveats.

First, while we depend highly on each other, we MUST be able to depend on ourselves as well. When a disaster hits us, the only person we can be sure will be there... is us. Look at NOLA a few years ago... the cops saved themselves and their family, the city and state governments failed. The federal government failed. People who had been warned for years that a Cat 5 storm would flood their neighborhood... and most didn't have any bottled water, canned food, or even the most remote bit of a plan of what to do if the shit hit the fan. One of my close friends ran a charity group here in Columbus to assist many of the people displaced by the event and I got to help out a lot. So I got to talk to a lot of the people living here that went through it. In almost every case the comment was "Well, we expected that the government would have us covered" or some variation of that with a heavy drawl While we are social animals, we must also be animals that are capable of survival on our own when necessary.

Second, I think there is an extreme difference between being social animals that work together, rely on each other and assist each other... and a system that demands involuntary acquiescence to whatever nonsense 51% of some spags in Washington DC happened to think was a good idea.

Unlike most 'Libertarians' I don't think we all should live on our own and be completely self-sufficient. Such an idea doesn't take into account that we have millions of people that simply could not be self-sufficient, no matter how much they would like. However, I do think that our interactions should be based on social agreements that living people can sign onto... not a social contract signed by a bunch of guys in the 1700's. It's not working together that I see a problem with. Its being forced to work together in a way defined by someone else as best, with no real say in the matter myself, that I have an issue with.

We are social animals and live in social groups, but, in my opinion, before we are social animals we are individuals and should be able to determine our lives and futures for ourselves. Part of those decisions surely involve HOW we will act socially, how we will support our social groups... but self-determination, to me, should be the first step.

[Kai]

Ratatosk, at this point people often don't really recognize how connected we all are, OR they subconsciously believe it and take it for granted and disaster happens (as you said above). So, the first step is conscious recognition aka awareness of the social world that binds us all together as a species, because when you're aware of it obviously you recognize it but its also harder to subconsciously "take it for granted" (abuse it or misinterpret it). What you just said.

I know this is expecting way too much of semi-conscious Homininae.

[Kai]

To be honest I was leaning that way too, I was just trying to be clever.

You know, the whole "arbitrary game rules imposed by religious authority" vs. "built into the human nervous system after millions of years of evolution" thing.

I'm sorry. Sometimes I think and I just feel like I have to talk.

[LMNO]

No worries.  Just wanted to let you know we're on the same page.

You were just more eloquent than me, is all.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Back on topic, I can't be a Discordian, because I don't believe that the poor should be left to starve to death in alleys.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?

So, you don't mind moral values, you just want the right ones.  As according to...

I want as few as possible without being the cause of a whole lot of people getting seriously ass-raped because of indecision/inaction.

How much income tax did you pay last year?  In absolute dollars?

I feel uncomfortable answering that in a public forum.

Okay, then I just stopped listening to arguments about taxation.

[LMNO]

Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.

Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.

[Thurnez Isa]

I didn't pay any tax last year
not a penny!
Mostly due to not working in the summer and claiming my tuition, and books for school this year
and since I was a private teacher I didn't pay income tax throughout the year
in fact I ended up getting 300 dollars back of tax i didn't even pay
SCORE!





Didn't pay tax the year before either due to be being part private in "the arts section" and being unionized  

[LMNO]

Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.

Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.

Ok, you lost me.  I guess I have to add up my payroll taxes, condo tax, excise tax, etc, right?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.

Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.

Ok, you lost me.  I guess I have to add up my payroll taxes, condo tax, excise tax, etc, right?

No.

Your income tax burden.  It's the net amount after all payments, then credits for children, marriage, medical, etc.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I pay about 28% since I'm single. They take out about 33% so I don't have to pay at the end of the year... 28% is a pretty decent chunk and based on the extra work I'm doing I'll probably get no refund this year.

At the end of the day, I don't mind paying taxes. I do, however, dislike having no control over where those taxes go.

[LMNO]

Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.

Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.

Ok, you lost me.  I guess I have to add up my payroll taxes, condo tax, excise tax, etc, right?

No.

Your income tax burden.  It's the net amount after all payments, then credits for children, marriage, medical, etc.

Oh, you mean after I try to weasel out of paying taxes with deductions, credits, donations, and the like?


Yeah, I see what you mean.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I pay about 28% since I'm single. They take out about 33% so I don't have to pay at the end of the year... 28% is a pretty decent chunk and based on the extra work I'm doing I'll probably get no refund this year.

At the end of the day, I don't mind paying taxes. I do, however, dislike having no control over where those taxes go.

Then you're going to have to propose an entirely different form of government.