The Fascist Virus: Defeat

[BADGE OF HONOR]

Cain: 3
navkat: 0

Anyway, I'd rather read about Fascists than dumb slapfights, there are plenty of other threads for you to shit up with your wrongheaded ignorance, navkat.

[Cain]

Thanks peeps.  I'm going to start writing part three in a moment, once I get a particular book, though it may not be up until Sunday, due to joyful family commitments. 

[navkat]

Okay. I'm sorry if that came off as aggressive, Cain. It WAS a really interesting post. I wasn't trying to argue with you, just take initiative and jump in the convo with the product of my own readings on the topic.

[navkat]

Cain: 3
navkat: 0

Anyway, I'd rather read about Fascists than dumb slapfights, there are plenty of other threads for you to shit up with your wrongheaded ignorance, navkat.

WTF?

I didn't see this before. I don't understand why the hell this has to turn into a huge argument all the time or why you felt the need to get involved in telling me to go fuck myself.

wrongheaded ignorance

Oh please enlighten me. What is rightheaded around here? I didn't realize there was a rightthink or a MA in PolySci prerequisite to being allowed to call yourself discordian and participate here.

It occurs to me that some of you are just unhappy, meanspirited people. I tried to exit the argument gracefully but you couldn't let me do that, right? You felt the need to grab my fucking ankle, beat the ever-living shit out of me and then piss on my face to show domination, right?

I have never been the type of person who has a problem being corrected or admitting when I'm wrong. The response to my posts was recreational overkill.

This whole board has become an unabashed Schadenfreude masturbation-fest.

There are some really awesome people on here whose insight I sorely miss when I've been away too long: Ratatosk, Hunter, ECH, TGRR LMNO, Cramulus (and I know I'm missing a few)--these are guys who have no problem having a sporting, firey debate without feeling compelled to shit in the mouth of anyone who "missed a spot."

There's a difference between dominating an argument on merit or dominating a person in a debate. One makes you awesome and the other makes you an asshole.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Navkat, Cain didn't call  you any names. He presented an educated refutation of your post, with citations, and you called him an asshole. Think about it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

(and want to imply I am the intolerant elitist asshole, a meme that seems to be more and more common on PD.com these days).

I've been thinking about this, and it seems like this usually happens when someone's uninformed opinions are countered with educated refutation. I think that, essentially, everyone wants to share their opinion, even if it's an uneducated, unresearched opinion, and for many of them, being thoroughly proven wrong rather than accepted as "an alternate point of view" feels insulting. I think it's the result of the "everybody's right in their own special way, everybody wins" mentality that was (and probably still is) so popular in schools through the 80's and 90's.

So many people just never learned to separate their ego from their argument, so when you attack the argument or the facts or the source of their information, they feel personally attacked. Then they call you an overeducated elitist; resorting to personal attack because they know they don't have the information to support their opinion. These are people who also have never really learned to think critically; to question what they hear rather than merely believing it. It's a long struggle to break out of that mode of thinking; to doublecheck the things we believe, and cross-reference them rather than forming incomplete opinions based on partial and inaccurate information from removed sources.

[Cainad (dec.)]

(and want to imply I am the intolerant elitist asshole, a meme that seems to be more and more common on PD.com these days).

I've been thinking about this, and it seems like this usually happens when someone's uninformed opinions are countered with educated refutation. I think that, essentially, everyone wants to share their opinion, even if it's an uneducated, unresearched opinion, and for many of them, being thoroughly proven wrong rather than accepted as "an alternate point of view" feels insulting. I think it's the result of the "everybody's right in their own special way, everybody wins" mentality that was (and probably still is) so popular in schools through the 80's and 90's.

So many people just never learned to separate their ego from their argument, so when you attack the argument or the facts or the source of their information, they feel personally attacked. Then they call you an overeducated elitist; resorting to personal attack because they know they don't have the information to support their opinion. These are people who also have never really learned to think critically; to question what they hear rather than merely believing it. It's a long struggle to break out of that mode of thinking; to doublecheck the things we believe, and cross-reference them rather than forming incomplete opinions based on partial and inaccurate information from removed sources.

for general correct motorcycleness

[navkat]

Navkat, Cain didn't call  you any names. He presented an educated refutation of your post, with citations, and you called him an asshole. Think about it.

That's not why I called him an asshole...or even when.

And I never called anyone an elitist. I  didn't have a problem with being corrected or Cain sharing his knowledge with me, I had a problem with the unwarranted nastiness.

Demo Squid mentioned that my input came off as aggressive which wasn't my intent, but okay. I offered my apologies for that and tried to play nice. I don't see how being called "Seriously deluded" and language like "don't make me laugh" is factual, non-aggressive refutation. I mean, can you put yourself in my shoes and see how that might be taken as an attack?

And then, I responded to the Roaring Biscuit with some silly, good-natured banter and THAT got attacked too. There wasn't any "hidden meanings" in what I was saying. I wasn't aimed AT Cain.  I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive, I was trying to lighten the mood and redirect and cool things down a peg. That's how I am. It's what I do.

And finally: BOH and that whole scoreboard nonsense. WTF is with that, anyway? Did someone else really need to jump in to say "ha ha, you suck navkat."

IDK. It's just lame. I just want to be able to post here and share laughs with people and giggle and act silly and maybe get turned on to some new things/learn some stuff but it's always so competitive. I don't want to be competitive with people on the internet anymore..I guess I've sort of outgrown all that.

I don't know; maybe y'all are so used to people getting all aggro over everything that you expect me to do the same thing and sort of auto-correct for that. *scratches head* It just seems like someone's always the winner and someone's always got to be the bitch in these exchanges. Okay. Can't we get past all that to the part where we start liking each other because "It's better than trying to talk to the mundanes out there who don't get it?"

[Template]

And then, I responded to the Roaring Biscuit with some silly, good-natured banter and THAT got attacked too. There wasn't any "hidden meanings" in what I was saying. I wasn't aimed AT Cain.  I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive, I was trying to lighten the mood and redirect and cool things down a peg. That's how I am. It's what I do.

Let's look at that, actually.

Claseless society?  Don't make me laugh.  Even ignoring what I said above, the fascist assault on genuine working class movements and support from the upper classes of society because of this, you fail to take into account fascist policies towards Jews, Romany gypsies, homosexuals and Slavs.  All of which were considered subhuman and were butchered because of it.  And women's sufferage?  German fascists thought a woman's place was in the kitchen or making good little Aryan troopers.  Women who actually worked were despised by fascists, who had a highly traditional view of society in that (and many other) respects.  Fascism was only anti aristocracy insofar as aristocrats were traditional conservatives (and allied with them anyway, when it suited their needs) and were anti-capitalist in rhetoric only, with all genuine anti-capitalist fascists either ending up dead or out of positions of influence once fascist parties came to power.

Try reading some actual history books.  You know, the sort written by people who can read German and Italian, and have had access to primary sources from the period as well as later analysis.  The sort of thing historians write, I guess is what I'm saying.

Also, if you think the above described policies are a core part of the Democratic party, then you are seriously deluded.

"Don't make me laugh" points to the idea you presented as true.  Fascists may have sold the "classless society" in their platform, but the joke's on anyone who supported them for it.  "Forward the classless society!  Out of the way, dog!"  Really, if one weren't to laugh, they'd cry.

The "seriously deluded" bit is safely nestled in a conditional statement.  Don't read it as an assumption that you believe the aforesaid.  Don't read it as "you are deluded."

IDK. It's just lame. I just want to be able to post here and share laughs with people and giggle and act silly and maybe get turned on to some new things/learn some stuff but it's always so competitive. I don't want to be competitive with people on the internet anymore..I guess I've sort of outgrown all that.

I don't know; maybe y'all are so used to people getting all aggro over everything that you expect me to do the same thing and sort of auto-correct for that. *scratches head* It just seems like someone's always the winner and someone's always got to be the bitch in these exchanges. Okay. Can't we get past all that to the part where we start liking each other because "It's better than trying to talk to the mundanes out there who don't get it?"

"People will act like you expect them to."  Partly, the quote relates to how one perceives things--other players' intentions and exact actions may not matter.  Partly, people play the roles they're given.

Expect less competition.  Trying to have fun, you might try to compete unwittingly.

And finally: BOH and that whole scoreboard nonsense. WTF is with that, anyway? Did someone else really need to jump in to say "ha ha, you suck navkat."

In light of the above quote, you kind of let your preconceptions and random responses set the stage for yourself.  Don't trap yourself.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There are non-serious threads... you could stick to those, if the heavy ones aren't your cup of tea. I personally like the serious ones, I like good a good online argument, and I hate misinformation, so I applaud when anyone steps up and corrects it. Your posts often come off as aggressive, and your posts in this thread have been unbelievably passive-aggressive ("I don't want to be competitive with people on the internet anymore..I guess I've sort of outgrown all that.") and then when people respond in kind, you turn around and play the victim.

I like a lot of the people on this board quite a bit, but you know what? My world is also filled with people I can touch in the flesh who "get it", and most of them aren't Discordians. It's not like being on a Discordian internet forum is some magic pill that makes everyone have the same ideas and get along...

[navkat]

and your posts in this thread have been unbelievably passive-aggressive ("I don't want to be competitive with people on the internet anymore..I guess I've sort of outgrown all that.") and then when people respond in kind, you turn around and play the victim.

See? I just covered this base. I mean, there's just nothing I can do if you're going to insist that I'm being passive-aggressive when I'm not.

It just seems to me (and I don't mean THIS in a passive aggressive way either) that people spend a lot of time around here one-upping one another and calling names. That's fine for you, but I'd kindly not like to be part of that particular aspect of this community. I've been there, I'm too tired/bored to spit out snazzy comebacks anymore and I'm over it. I'm not saying "I'm better than you," I'm just jaded or whatever you want to call it and I'd like to be allowed to just be myself without getting into it with people over stupid shit.

And I have no problem with the serious posts either (although, I personally think NOTHING on the webbernet should be too serious for silliness), but if I say something that needs to be corrected just do so and get on with life. I don't understand why we have to dedicate pages and pages of dialogue to putting people in their place. You can correct someone without kicking their teeth in and pissing on the body.

And finally (again: I'm just being honest), it seems like there's ALWAYS a few people on the shitlist around here. I don't understand that. I can understand that sometimes, someone is just so retarded or so irritating or so goddamned arrogant on a regular basis that they really need to be ripped to shreds but here, it just seems like y'all NEVER have a week where someone doesn't need to be bitch-slapped back in line. It's like a big poopie-party around here.

[bunch of stuff]

I appreciate your points, sir. I still think some of that was intentionally meant to be aggressive to put me in my place but you're right: I shouldn't assume it and since everyone else seems to be reading it differently, I guess my radar must be the one that's off. I'll just leave it at that and let it drop in the name of peace.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think maybe you need to go look up the definition of "Passive-aggressive" if you don't recognize it in your own posts. The passive put-downs you employ are textbook.

Other than that, the only advice I can give you is that if being here makes you unhappy, don't do it.

[navkat]

I think maybe you need to go look up the definition of "Passive-aggressive" if you don't recognize it in your own posts. The passive put-downs you employ are textbook.

Other than that, the only advice I can give you is that if being here makes you unhappy, don't do it.

No, I know what it means. You're calling them put-downs and I'm saying they're not. If you're going to insist that you know what I intended better than I, then I can't help you. As a matter of fact: I was deliberately careful to be very even-headed and calm when I wrote the post in question.

This shouldn't be a matter of debate at all. You don't get to school me on what was going on inside my own head too...regardless of what you think is "textbook."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The fact that you don't know you're being passive-aggressive doesn't make it less so. Barbed statements like the ones you make ARE passive-aggressive, whether you're doing it consciously or not.

"I don't want to be competitive with people on the internet anymore..I guess I've sort of outgrown all that." IS a passive-aggressive comment. Telling us it's not doesn't make it stop being one. I could go through and harvest some more passive-aggressive comments from your posts in this thread, if you'd like.

What you've been pulling here is the classic "I don't like this place, and it's not me, it's all of you" shtick. The thing is, though, that if you decide that everyone in a place sucks or that you've outgrown it, you can either move on and find something else to do with your time, or you can stay and continue to find it miserable. If you do the latter, odds are good that the problem doesn't lie with everyone else, but with you, because staying somewhere that makes you unhappy is unhealthy behavior.

You talk a lot about feeling alienated from people IRL, not fitting in, not being able to find like-minded people. I'd like to propose the possibility, for your consideration, that it is not everyone else in your world who is the issue, but that you may have some communication issues that make it difficult for you to relate to people. I'm certainly seeing it here, and with the amount that you complain about having problems relating to people IRL I would not be surprised if that was an issue for you in face-to-face communication as well; especially the tendency to take no responsibility for communication gone awry, and to blame everyone else for your estrangement.

Maybe just something to look into.

[navkat]

The fact that you don't know you're being passive-aggressive doesn't make it less so. Barbed statements like the ones you make ARE passive-aggressive, whether you're doing it consciously or not.

"I don't want to be competitive with people on the internet anymore..I guess I've sort of outgrown all that." IS a passive-aggressive comment. Telling us it's not doesn't make it stop being one. I could go through and harvest some more passive-aggressive comments from your posts in this thread, if you'd like.

No. You don't get to tell me what I was thinking in my head. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but that's is all. You are also free to psychoanalyze me all you want but you don't get the final say on my intent. Period.

You talk a lot about feeling alienated from people IRL, not fitting in, not being able to find like-minded people. I'd like to propose the possibility, for your consideration, that it is not everyone else in your world who is the issue, but that you may have some communication issues that make it difficult for you to relate to people. I'm certainly seeing it here, and with the amount that you complain about having problems relating to people IRL I would not be surprised if that was an issue for you in face-to-face communication as well; especially the tendency to take no responsibility for communication gone awry, and to blame everyone else for your estrangement.

Let's put this into context, shall we? I live in Mobile, Alabama.
I am non-religious, work from home and all of my friends live in either New York or New Orleans.

The statements I made (in other threads, btw) pertain to my travels online and have mainly to do with the issues about which I am concerned. I find a definite disconnect between where I stand politically, where I stand socially and how I'm oriented as a person and a "discordian," (a term, btw, that no one in my life seems to have even heard of).

I get lonely. I get hungry for meatier conversation with people who understand wtf I'm talking about. I used to find relief here.

Did you really not comprehend what I meant by that? I'm asking because I think it's pretty silly that I should have to explain it in such detailed terms. I shouldn't have to. There should be a basic level of understanding and assumption of good will and good intent that people offer each other at the most basic level. When you say something: I assume it's coming from an honest place unless I have reason to believe otherwise. We don't go around making people prove credibility for their own thought-processes.

I'm asking kindly for people to back up off me. I'm not in on the game, okay? That's it. I want to come here; discuss things I want to discuss, be nice to people, joke around a little bit and that's it. If y'all want to do the one-upmanship thing with each other, that's fine. I'm NOT judging you. I'm NOT by mentioning my having "outgrown it" implying that I think I'm superior to you in any way, okay? You're entitled to your fun in any colour you choose. I believe that, I stand by it and encourage that. I'm just politely asking for an "opt-out" function so I can come here and speak freely without unintentionally finding myself balls-deep in a pd.com infraction of the rules. Talk to me like a cabbage. Assume that I haven't read the same books as you--because I probably haven't. Dismiss me as an idiot if you want--plenty of people do that and I'm fine with that.

And you're absolutely right about one thing: If I can't come here and say what I want uncensored, without ending up with someone's dick in my ear and someone else holding up a scorecard it's probably unhealthy for me to keep attempting this.

I showed up this time in earnest: really trying to engage in conversation with the best of intentions. I was careful not to say anything y'all might find immediately irritating--like playing the "navkat the r4v0r z0mg lol" troll character (another thing I've "outgrown") or making jokes about my tits or basically ANYTHING that would make anyone uncomfortable. I offered the same respect and concern for people's feelings that I wanted in return: I believe you get out only what you put in.

I don't know what else to say. I think I've effectively cleared this up. I'm sure there's like: a million additional things you could harvest as "proof" of what was going on inside my unconscious mind. But I don't think that's valid or fair. We don't go around judging people by what we think feel deep-down where they can't see it--only by the work they do to take the right actions in treating us with respect.

I've done that. You raised questions about what I meant by things I said and I answered them. That should be the end of it.