Author Topic: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.  (Read 37967 times)

Kai

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2009, 04:46:41 pm »
I am gonna think sideways on this for a second.

As I love to point out, Cause and Effect exist because we humans create a partial model out of a subset of data. Cause - You ran a red light, Effect - You hit a car... in reality, though, there are many, many causes which led to the accident and effects are likely to extend well beyond that intersection. Could looking for the First Cause be a broken premise to start with? Instead of a First Cause, might there simply be a first 'INTERACTION'? In an emerget system, would the First thing to be interested in be the Big Bang, or the first transmission of Information, the first combination of electrons and company to form elements? That is, if we seek a 'Emergent Spirituality' , might the Big Bang itself be pre-causal. If God and DNA, Life  the Universe and Everything are all children of emergence, what caused (what causes, effects, events) led to the first emergence, the first interaction between causes and effects? When did the first Information get shared, in some sense.

Maybe, an emergent system wouldn't worry about how the building blocks first showed up, but rather how the building blocks first emerged from independent bits of flotsam to the start of a Universe... or something.

Well, I think some people would argue that looking for the first cause isn't broken  :lol: some scientists I can think of. But yeah, I like the idea of a first interaction.

Well, I meant in terms of this model of Emergence as Spirituality or whatever you want to call it... First Cause seems unnecessary to the model if we're focused on interactions and emergence... I think.


Quote
If we think of emergence as "when interactions go on, stuff happens that follows a new system of interactions", then a first interaction makes sense. If life is chemistry versus chemistry and chemistry is matter versus matter, the perhaps matter (and less specifically, space time forces, all the things required for the state of matter) is the interaction of energy versus energy. So, emergence could be said to come from that first interaction (someone will ask where did the energy come from, but then you could claim energy is precausal).

Or that the it's in some pre-emergence model which isn't covered by the emergence model... ;-)


I think that a universe before emergence would be beyond my ability of comprehension. I live in a universe based in Emergence, so I can't really comprehend anything outside of it. How would I think about energy without particles or forces? Its just impossible for me. Maybe thats why the idea of the Void works, void of our comprehension and impossible to understand, a great mystery.

That seems entirely reasonable to me

Thinking about energy interacting with energy, the phrase "quantum fluctuations" comes to mind. But anyway, enough about first interactions.
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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2009, 01:43:16 am »
So according to Emergence, what is the fundamental human condition, what's wrong with humanity today, and what should I do to fix it?

(A religion professor I once had said that just about every religion answers those three questions, and in general I tend to agree.)
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Kai

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2009, 01:45:45 pm »
So according to Emergence, what is the fundamental human condition, what's wrong with humanity today, and what should I do to fix it?

(A religion professor I once had said that just about every religion answers those three questions, and in general I tend to agree.)

Humans are the current crown species of our particular lineage, a lineage that leads 3.5 Billion years to the Progenitor, the first Life, and as such we share in an amazing history and a connection through this lineage to all living things that have every lived and will ever live on this planet (assuming the tree of life is rooted, which is the idea most biologist work under). We have an even longer lineage as our atoms were forged in crucibles of stars and exploded out into the universe, and so we share too that we are all stardust. We are living beings with emergent minds, tool makers with a wide variety of abilities and the need to create, shape from ideas into form, art, literature, and technology. We're able to ask big questions about life and the universe. Though these things may set us somewhat apart from our ancestors, we are still inextricably tied to the next tier of Emergence, the global ecology I call Process of Sustaining, from which we all take part, the Process which by the light of Sol Sustains all Life.

Although we are with incredible intellect and abilities, and it is clear where are roots are and what we are part of, it is easy to lose sight of our place in the Process of Sustaining. We /are/ part of giving and taking, and there is no avoiding ultimate death.

Quote
The Illusion of Taking without Giving

Many people in this world
follow the illusion of taking and not giving.

Is it ironic
that the end of giving
began as a gift?

The idea that one is not part
of the process of sustaining,
that one is above it,
that one can control it;

that is the path to destruction.

These people take the gifts given freely,
and then enter the house
and take everything.

They have no respect for life.
To them, taking is a game,
a livelyhood.

But, they are not at peace.

In buying into the illusion,
they have formed their own hell.

A hell of consuming, and of fear
especially fear of their own death.

They will still die, in their own hell of fear
and possibly they will relent,
but not likely.

They may not give their life freely,
in the end,
but it will still be taken.

So, we fear death, we loose touch of our roots and the Process that goes on around us, and we try to control It in ways that are ultimately damaging for ourselves and our species. We loose our sense of awe, our communion with Life, and our respect for Life and the Process of Sustaing.

The solution to this starts with an awareness of ones own agency, and extends to the understanding of agency in all Life. It may not be conscious, but all living things have an end, a teleos, and a continuance. You let your mind sweep back across time to see the lineages bind together at the root in the Progenitor and see just how connected all life is by this chain of continuance. Life leads to Life, there is no lack of life inbetween. This is a 3.5 billion year unbroken chain. You go back further, see the atoms within us are a continuance of the atoms that came at the first moment, the energy there is the energy that has been since the Beginning, and the particular compositions of our bodies, these atoms were formed in the depths of stars. So, we too are connected to the greater cosmos in that way.

And we can reach out with our minds and see all the connections going on here on Earth in the Process of Sustaining, all the Giving and Taking and how it forms this giant network so incredibly complex and yet so simply in continuance, and realize we share in this. All these connections generate a sense of of great awe in me, liberating awe.

We can go a step further and consider our own death, but what is death really? If we are not just our minds in our bodies but our minds as part of our bodies, then our bodies don't really end. At the moment of death, other life begins taking of our sustainence. Our atoms continue in the earth, in the air, but mostly in other living things. So, we don't really end at death, we continue as part of Life.

All of these things instill a great sense of awe, respect, and fearlessness of death in me. When people realize what they are part of they will no longer fight death with illusions of forever taking. This is not saying utopia, or an end of pain, but those individual humans who choose to see it will know that we are not alone, that we all share in this Process, we're all together in this. We will cease being a destructive force in our own ecology, simply from awareness over time. Awareness breeds empathy, and empathy for each other and for our place in the Process is what we need now, more than anything. Thats how it starts. And I in this at least will not fear death.
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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2009, 01:55:58 pm »
Wow.  Kai, take it as a compliment that you could totally sell this concept to the New Age crowd; plus, it has the added bonus of being coherent and useful.


I'm being honest here: Bottle it, write a book, and reap the rewards.  You might be able to meet Oprah.

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2009, 02:30:58 pm »
Wow.  Kai, take it as a compliment that you could totally sell this concept to the New Age crowd; plus, it has the added bonus of being coherent and useful.


I'm being honest here: Bottle it, write a book, and reap the rewards.  You might be able to meet Oprah.

Would that cheapen it?
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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2009, 02:36:36 pm »
If you're sincere, and the work has merit, I wouldn't think so.


Do the pinealists cheapen my understanding of Discordia?  Not really.

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2009, 02:53:17 pm »
Would that cheapen it?

I think that depends on your intent for your activities.

if you mean for this to be a philosophy adopted by others in a meaningful way, then, yes.  it would cheapen it because you would be on the bookshelf next to 'The Secret', etc....

if you mean for this to be a philosophy for yourself, and if other people like it, 'whatever'....
then sell that stuff.... it's easier to enjoy a philosophy that embraces unity and wholism when your observing it all from a comfortable position, and money helps to that end...

Kai

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2009, 03:01:00 pm »
If you're sincere, and the work has merit, I wouldn't think so.


Do the pinealists cheapen my understanding of Discordia?  Not really.

Okay. I think I agree with you.

This is just a beginning. The whole thing needs so much work before it would be ready for the sort of progressive layout that a book requires.

Goodenough and the rest have done similar things and I like their works but they still fall short of religious language. Goodenough talks about emergence but gets caught up in reductionism and Christian passages. Stuart Kauffman talks of emergence without reductionism but he ends up in incoherent scientific prose and quantum speculation. KE Peters talks about god as a cosmic dance between emergence and selection, but he inserts way too much personal prose and not enough common talk. All of these fail because of their wordiness and lack of simplicity. They provide a background then meld together a mishmash of traditions instead of creating a cohesive new tradition. Its good that these works are here, because then I don't have to provide the background.

I can simply start by creating a new tradition completely without trying to appease those who want a deeper background to where this all comes from. I guess what I'm saying is that these people didn't go far enough, they didn't take their ideas to the ultimate conclusion. Its kinda like how Leary created the 8-circuit system, RAW made it more concrete in Prometheus Rising and Antero Alli made it cohesive and took it to an ultimate conclusion in Angel Tech. Thats why what Leary made was interesting, what RAW wrote was fun and mind expanding, and what Alli wrote is more satisfying and practical. [ratatosk]For sombunal people, sombunal the time[/ratatosk]
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Kai

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2009, 03:04:53 pm »
Would that cheapen it?

I think that depends on your intent for your activities.

if you mean for this to be a philosophy adopted by others in a meaningful way, then, yes.  it would cheapen it because you would be on the bookshelf next to 'The Secret', etc....

if you mean for this to be a philosophy for yourself, and if other people like it, 'whatever'....
then sell that stuff.... it's easier to enjoy a philosophy that embraces unity and wholism when your observing it all from a comfortable position, and money helps to that end...

Well, it would be nice if it were adopted by others in a meaningful way, but I'm not willing to compromise my "vision" in the process. So I guess it would be the latter.
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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2009, 03:41:46 pm »
Would that cheapen it?

I think that depends on your intent for your activities.

if you mean for this to be a philosophy adopted by others in a meaningful way, then, yes.  it would cheapen it because you would be on the bookshelf next to 'The Secret', etc....

if you mean for this to be a philosophy for yourself, and if other people like it, 'whatever'....
then sell that stuff.... it's easier to enjoy a philosophy that embraces unity and wholism when your observing it all from a comfortable position, and money helps to that end...

Well, it would be nice if it were adopted by others in a meaningful way, but I'm not willing to compromise my "vision" in the process. So I guess it would be the latter.

Prometheus Rising, Angel Tech, Quantum Psychology, Towards An Archeology of the Soul, etc etc etc are all published books and I'd argue that it doesn't cheapen them, or their message. The difference, IMO, lies in the writing style. The Secret is written like a Snake Oil Salesman's wet dream, Angel Tech is written like a set of concepts and ideas which are useful, if you use them... the book makes no GET X NOW claims... at best it claims to be a mechanics work book... which is only as helpful as the mechanic ;-)

Publishing is a key way more people can interact with information. More feedback, more memetic infections, more emergence as your ideas mix with the ideas of the reader and something new is formed.

In short, there's nothing wrong with publishing good ideas, as long as you don't publish the good idea as "Jeremiah Peabody's Polyunsaturated Quick-Dissolving Fast-Acting Pleasant-Tasting Green and Purple Pills".

Do Nevar Do This:


Quote
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Are you nervous, jumpy or on the edge?
Is it neuritis, neuralgia, a head cold or stress?
Or maybe its your sinus drainage.

Do you have high blood, Berry-Berry?
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You better make some correction in all this infection,
Just send in one dollar ninety eight.

Get ridda that runny nose, that nagging cough, that sneeze, achoo,
That wheeze and other injuries.
Take the wonder drug that cures all your ills,
Take Jeremiah Peabodys polyunsaturated, quick dissolving, fast acting,
Pleasant tasting green and purple pills.

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Well, it won't upset your stomach, Its good for arthiritis,
It sooths all your aches and pains.
Get ridda those hammers in your head,
Don't be a hyprakrondriac ,
Start feelin' better again.

Clear up that fungus or mongus;
Its good for every ailment, including water on the knee.
And its guaranteed to be just what you need
For quick, fast, easy relief.

Get ridda that runny nose, that nagging cough, that sneeze, that wheeze
And other injuries. Take the wonder drug that cures all your ills, Take
Jeremiah Peabodys polyunsaturated, quick dissolving, fast acting,
Pleasant tasting, green and purple pills.

Oh, yeah! Little green and purple pills, oh, yeah, little green and
Purple pills.....

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

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Kai

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2009, 04:18:59 pm »
I definitely wouldn't do that. I also don't want to go the way of other authors though, who were unable to take their convictions to the next level. I don't want to prescribe a cure-all but I do want to prescribe at least something, you know, without having to take the whole book trying to be convincing (Cf. Dancing with the Sacred) or full of incomprehensable scientific explanations (Cf. Reinventing the sacred) or trying to borrow too much directly from other religious sources for explanation (Cf. The Sacred Depths of Nature).
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

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Kai

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2009, 08:21:46 pm »
I've taken to saying something before every meal. In Sustaining, a meal shared is the most basic and sacred thing a person can take part in. So, I say words to draw attention to the sacredness of eating:

"I am here now for this meal I have prepared. I am grateful for this Life Given that I Take [sometimes I list individual organisms that are ingredients] and Sustain myself. Thanks to the creative metaforce of Emergence, the Progenitor from which all life has come, and to the Process of Sustaining, through which all things continue and that we all take part."

If I were with a group of people I might modify it thus:

"We are gathered here now for this meal [name] has prepared for us. We are reminded of and grateful for this Life Given that we Take and Sustain ourselves. We are grateful we are together to share in this Sustenence. May the Life Given Sustain us and make us whole so we may continue. Thanks to the creative metaforce of Emergence, the Progenitor from which all Life has come, and the Process of Sustaining, of which we all take part."

So, how does that sound, too contrived? It more or less came out spontaneously and then I put it on paper.

Bits and pieces, I know, but little things like this that are part of every day experience are what makes religion (and ritual) real for people, and invites introspection.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2009, 08:35:27 pm »
my prayer would be,

"sorry cow, I was hungry, and you taste sooooooo good. Next time YOU learn how to use a pointy stick."
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2009, 10:12:00 pm »
Sounds too much like native American hippie crap.

I feel no need to thank or apologize to a fucking cow.
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Re: I'm making a religion based on Emergence.
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2009, 11:40:27 pm »
Sounds too much like native American hippie crap.

I feel no need to thank or apologize to a fucking cow.

Hey.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”