This sort of shit happens ALL THE TIME in the UK

[Cain]

Granted but the Chief Rabbi's piece was written last month. Your original reply suggested that jews "crying wolf" were harming their own cause - to which my reply would have been another hoary old meme " no smoke without fire" and I would genuinely like your take on his article.

"The Jews" aren't doing anything.  "The Jews" are an abitrary collection of humans with differing interests, opinions and beliefs who only have two identity labels in common: the Jewish (ethnic) or Jewish (religious) label, which, for some sort of bizarre reason lots of people with stupid ideas about race and genetics or religion have invested a lot in.

My take is the article is hysterical, politically motivated rubbish and that an actual increase in anti-Semitic attacks, while worrying, does not suggest, as the author does, that Britain and Europe are a seething mass of American and Jew haters, nor is someone likely to be attacked because of those beliefs on the streets of the UK, verbally or otherwise, and that people against the war and critical of US and Israeli actions are not typical of the people she describes.  This piece is hyperbolic and based on personal anecdotes and so obviously fake it deserves to be mocked.  I also note the author seems uninterested that there have also been increased attacks on blacks and Asians - especially Muslims - since 2001, but this is not mentioned because, again, its a politically motivated piece and not a piece about racism per se.

That doesn't mean there isn't an undercurrent of anti-semitism /  anti-Americanism in Europe in general and GB in particular, and I assume that is not what you are meaning to imply

It throws doubt on the veracity of the story.  Well, more doubt than the lack of names, dodgy quoting, publication name and badly written dialogue do.

I get what you are saying but wouldn't you agree that the whole "don't ask don't tell" Griffin whitewash also supports my argument that there is a sufficient swell of anti-semitism to cause concern

It also supports my argument that this is about targeting people with a certain political agenda as racists, since those of an anti-Semitic bent who publically support Israel's nastier and more questionable actions magically disappear from the argument, if you can that tirade by such a name.

I am not an apologist for Gough's fruitloopery and tbh find [some of ] her views abhorrent but I would question what you suspect her actual agenda is since you don't actually unpack it here. Brits who don't support the war on terror wholeheartedly being the anti-semitic  running dogs of Islam is a weird idea but it isn't an agenda. What do you see as the purpose of this drivel is it just preaching to the choir and how, if at all is it related to less florid and, therefore, to my mind, more disturbing articles like the Sir Jonathan Sacks one.

Yes it is, because it deligitamizes those who are against the war, and against Israel's actions because racism is abhorrent to most people.  Its aim is therefore to undermine a political position through blanket accusations and poor innuendo.

I made no such implication. You are an interesting and obviously complex individual and I suspect your demons are legion but I have NEVER suspected that racism including anti-semitism was part of the package. I genuinely hope you answer re. the Sacks piece

Except for when you brought up Jewish world domination conspiracy theories in response to my post.  Yeah, apart from that you didn't imply a thing, you dishonest sack of shit.  Oh, and don't try and psychoanalyze me.  Its boring, and I don't care for it.

Sacks veer between sensibility and unwarranted defensiveness.  Racists nowadays will use the cover of criticism of Israel to cloak their real opinions, that is true, and actions Israel undertakes will cause spikes in anti-Semitic activity.  The UNGA's Arabic and Middle Eastern countries will frequently and opportunistically attack Israel, since nothing works quite as well at keeping poverty ridden dictatorships together than an external enemy.  

However Israel has been alleged to have committed very serious crimes and to dismiss claims of human rights breaches as being nothing more than the "new anti-Semitism" is an attempt to shut down the debate through ad hominem.  You'll also note how he conflates Israel and Jews dishonestly at at least one point in the article, such as with his point about Mossad and 9/11.  Do many people who claim Mossad was behind or involved in 9/11 have anti-semitic worldviews?  Yes, of course, and I wouldn't be surprised if the origins of that particular conspiracy theory was some KKK infested basement.  But it doesn't necessarily follow, and certainly doesn't apply to all cases.  Especially in cases which are actually proven.  If I pointed out Mossad ran an illegal assassination squad in Europe in the aftermath of the Munich Olympic Games massacre, is that anti-Semitic? No, its a factual description of a policy undertaken by a particular nation.  Its absurd as claiming if I pointed out that the PFLP had trained illegal terrorist cells cells in Europe, then that is, by and of itself, racist against Palestinians or Arabs.  Now, if someone claimed that all Jews were to be held guilty because of the actions of Mossad, or that all Arabs were to be held guilty because of the actions of the PFLP, or that they carried out these actions simply because they were Jews or Arabs...then we'd have a case for calling them racist.  

I also note, yet again, there is a distinct lack of figures there.  I don't doubt there has been a rise, but he does not help his case when he asserts, instead of presents evidence.

[MMIX]

I dunno, I though Thurnez' post was hilarious.


Guess it depends where you're standing.

and also who I was talking about . . .

[Cain]

I traveled through london, amsterdam & germany in 2006 and felt a moderate amount of anti-american sentiment. Certain people, particularly in Germany, were bristling to deliver their opinion about the US government. I avoided political discussion at all costs. My inarticulate and poorly read boss, however, engaged anybody and everybody at the drop of a hat. He was also talking loudly, wearing bad shorts with a fanny pack, and kept trying to order Coors Light. It was embarassing, to say the least.

I did talk to a few people about politics. Afterwards, one guy said, "You've really made me realize that the media here depicts americans very badly and that it's not always on the money."

In response to "Your president is a facist," I'd usually just say, "Yeah, we didn't vote for him." Some people actually looked surprised about that. It made me wonder about what makes the news in Europe.

If it makes you feel any better, they're probably the same sort of person who would, in America, be complaining about Europeans or Iraqis or something.

People who conflate the actions of individuals (especially ones they do not know) with their governments are generally not too smart anyway.  I know when I was in France, during the Iraq War, we once got verbally abused by someone.  However, he looked to be Arabic and very drunk, so for all I know, he was actually an Iraqi and was worried about his family or something.

As for the media, it depends what they are watching.  Most of the European papers are fairly even handed and seem to occupy the centre of the political map.  I don't really watch European news stations so I don't know what is going on there, though I imagine there would be fairly strict regulatory rules, as there are in the UK.  Now if they are getting their information from Indymedia and antiwar.com, on the other hand...however, I suspect its a case of people hearing what they want to hear, and extrapolating from the idiots interviewed who were praising Bush after his re-election to every American.

It also noticeably reversed with the election of Obama, who is highly popular, so, you know, it does seem more politically based than just hatred of Americans.

[MMIX]

Thanks for the reply Cain, you have given me a lot to think about there. So, just to clarify, the hidden agenda is the undermining of the position of war-unenthusiasts by positioning them as inherently racist therefore not to be trusted. I appreciate the time you have taken - I used to read voraciously and consume vast quantities of current affairs material but I am unable to do that nowadays and have to rely on other sources - erm like you. And thanks for your impressions on the Sacks piece too.

[Cain]

OK.

And I apologize if I came across harshly.  I've been having a very rough week with people accusing me of manifestly untrue shit, and I'm quite annoyed by now.  My temper is significantly shorter, and having to occasionally restart or hit this laptop isn't helping my temper any.

Its also worth noting that Sacks has also previously said that Britain is one of the most tolerant and wonderful countries for Jewish people to live in, and has also denounced people who conflate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews.  I can only assume the Times editorial team had an axe to grind, which would be unsurprising, given their ownership by Murdoch.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Actually, you know what?  Fuck this noise.  In the past week I've been accused of being an elitist asshole, the next Wade, a spoiled brat and now, apparently, I'm a covert racist too.

Why the fuck I ever bother contributing anything is beginning to escape me.

Because those of us that aren't fucked up noobs looking for a fight enjoy reading it?

[Cain]

Actually, you know what?  Fuck this noise.  In the past week I've been accused of being an elitist asshole, the next Wade, a spoiled brat and now, apparently, I'm a covert racist too.

Why the fuck I ever bother contributing anything is beginning to escape me.

I'd like to see a link to that accusation.  The prospect horrifies me so.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21393.msg723004#msg723004

And don't worry, I'm not giving up.  Just getting progressively more annoyed with it.

[Triple Zero]

according to the news, all americans are dumb, fascist rednecks.

but going by what I see on PD, all americans are incredibly funny asshats

and 40 year old bald guys.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

according to the news, all americans are dumb, fascist rednecks.

but going by what I see on PD, all americans are incredibly funny asshats

and 40 year old bald guys.

And 40 year old fat guys named Suu.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Wait.  Why are the 40 year old bald guys excluded from the rest?

[Triple Zero]

Wait.  Why are the 40 year old bald guys excluded from the rest?

I meant Suu (and the other girls), forgot that you are in fact a 40 year old bald guy (which explains why in reality you are a beautiful fairy princess, right?)

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Wait.  Why are the 40 year old bald guys excluded from the rest?

I meant Suu (and the other girls), forgot that you are in fact a 40 year old bald guy (which explains why in reality you are a beautiful fairy princess, right?)

Shit yeah.

[MMIX]

OK.

And I apologize if I came across harshly.  I've been having a very rough week with people accusing me of manifestly untrue shit, and I'm quite annoyed by now.  My temper is significantly shorter, and having to occasionally restart or hit this laptop isn't helping my temper any.

Its also worth noting that Sacks has also previously said that Britain is one of the most tolerant and wonderful countries for Jewish people to live in, and has also denounced people who conflate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews.  I can only assume the Times editorial team had an axe to grind, which would be unsurprising, given their ownership by Murdoch.

no harm no foul -  and don't let the bastards grind you down - you should realise how much you are appreciated round here - just sayin'

[navkat]

1.  The article was written in 2004.

2.  The article was written for Frontpage, a magazine devoted to 'fighting the war of ideas' in the War on Terror. ie by coming up with conspiracy theories about Muslims taking over the world and how its perfectly alright to shoot Palestianians because they all grow up to be terrorists anyway.  Its editor is David Horowitz, who has been accused by the SPLC of trying to make bigoted and discredit ideas respectable and by consorting with white supremacists in the USA (not to mention taking their money).  In fact, a list of writers for Standpoint magazine includes several notable Neocons, such as Charles Krauthammer, but also several paranoid conspiracy theorists of the far-right, including Bat Ye'or, Fjordman (who supports the fascist Vlaams Belang and equally odious Swedish Democrats) and Ann Coulter.

3.  The incidents that are described are so patently false as to be laughable.  Not only that, they also fall into the standard American Right trope of anti-Semtic, anti-American Europeans, which was highly prevalent just after the Iraq War and Bush's re-election.  Note the repititions of the "dinner table" and "parties" (it is an oft repeated myth among conservative circles that champagne socialists and lefties throw parties purely to chat shit about evil Jooos all night long).

4.  Not only are false accusations harmful in and of themselves, they obscure the real threat to Americans and Jews in the UK - the one coming from extremist Muslims and the far right.  The latter in particular being ignored by the media at large, as seen most recently by the press giving a free ride to Nick Griffin whenever he is interviewed (just see how often his holocaust denial, or fantastically anti-Semitic book, comes up in articles about him).  Of course, that never comes up, because its easier to pin statements on nameless and likely fictitious individuals, and because it doesn't fit the agenda (see below).

5.  If you read between the lines, Gough's real agenda become obvious.  Namely, that Brits who are insufficiently enthused with the war on terror, Bush and Sharon are secretly frothing racists.  She misrepresents Faisal Bodi (whose article is actually pretty reasonable and has devoted time and money to interfaith dialogue), and goes off on her own hate-filled tirades about Europe being filled with anti-semites and latent Holocausters in the making, which some might consider undermine her supposed point about hatred of people based on nationality or ethnicity.  She also seems to think that America, and Israel, never did anything wrong before Bush Jr coming to power, which is an amusingly wrong notion.

6.  I actually spent 4 years hanging around with Americans, Jewish and otherwise in a decent-sized town with a very mixed population, including many Europeans, Muslims and some Palestinians.  Not once did anything like that ever occur.  Carol Gould would have us believe the UK is on the tip of a seething frenzy of anti-Semitic hatred.  I've walked around London, Manchester and Edinburgh frequently with obviously American and obviously Jewish friends without anyone saying a word. Amazing.

7. STFU with your implications I don't give a shit about racism when its against Jews, or that I'm anti-semitic.  I spent months bleeding over research about far-right terrorism in Europe and America, precisely because racist incidents concern me so much.  Articles like this do nothing except throw about accusations for short term political benefit, and actually worsen the situation.  Bullshit, pity-me sob-stories piss me off, when I spent weeks going through databases to catalogue possible incidents of rightwing terrorism to present an accurate picture of the problem.

Wow.

I have no doubt that between raw intelligence, personal experience, education and personal dedication that you are most likely superHuman and on a level that basically transcends the rest of us when it comes to certain things. What I don't get is why you let it bother you when one of us "mundanes" says something stupid based on our common knowledge and misconceptions.

I appreciate you being here and sharing with us. I don't know why you're not in some covert agency somewhere in charge of deciding who can press the big red button and when--I've never even picked up half the books you undoubtedly remember photographically...but whatever the reason: it's a good thing for us. It forces me to challenge myself and learn new things.

That said: you shouldn't let the rest of us get to you. Just explain it graciously and move on. Being ignorant to something which is common knowledge to you (and therefore; forming opinions based thus) is not really difficult to do. It doesn't mean we're stupid, it just means you are the Superior Officer in that area.

I know for me; usually when I say something that gets your dander up, I'm not trying to be idiotic or frustrate you, I'm simply working only with the knowledge and life experiences I have on file.

[navkat]

I meant all that in a non-critical way, BTW.