Secret of Atkins diet revealed.

[Kai]

Possibly.

Because you're going to have to provide a whole lot of evidence for something as extreme as "msg causes obesity" before I'm willing to accept that glutamate + sodium = obesity. The much more parsimonious and sensible conclusion is that Chinese cooking often has heavy sauces with lots of corn starch thickener, sugar, and white rice.

[Requia ☣]

The concern isn't that MSG causes obesity, the concern is that MSG stimulates overeating.  Determining that it's linked to obesity in non junk food cultures is part of that.

However, its very tricky to have somebody increase or decrease MSG intake without also effecting everything else they eat (thus the rural china study being so important, completely different dietary habits are associated with MSG there), so we don't at this point, actually know for sure if it stimulates overeating or if it triggers people to eat more food with MSG (which is usually not good for you).

This is one of those better safe than sorry things.

[Triple Zero]

So wait, on the one hand you want to bring more MSG into your diet because it stops you from craving junk food,

Also, I found out why bacon shuts down junk food cravings for me.  Apparently most junk food has MSG (even if it says 'no msg' thanks to crappy FDA regs) and while the 'Chinese restaurant syndrome' thing about MSG was completely bogus, MSG has an addictive effect according to one of my textbooks.

However high quality cuts of meat have glutamic acid, the nutrient MSG imitates the taste of, so the bacon satisfies the MSG craving.

and on the other hand you are worried that it stimulates overeating???

The concern isn't that MSG causes obesity, the concern is that MSG stimulates overeating.

That ... just doesn't make any sense at all.

However, its very tricky to have somebody increase or decrease MSG intake without also effecting everything else they eat (thus the rural china study being so important, completely different dietary habits are associated with MSG there), so we don't at this point, actually know for sure if it stimulates overeating or if it triggers people to eat more food with MSG (which is usually not good for you).

This is one of those better safe than sorry things.

And perhaps this puzzles me more, but, "better safe than sorry", better safe from what than sorry for what exactly?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Foods that are high in sugar (especially monosuccarates) and starch should be considered junk food and not really part of *any* diet though, not just weight loss.  These days even the government admits that.  My objection to low carb dieting is more that most the common interpretation of low carb diets don't distinguish between wonderbread and whole grain bread, or between a Coke and an orange.

That's exactly my problem with it. My ex did Atkins about 12 years ago, and I was astonished that he couldn't eat VEGETABLES. Or brown rice, or whole wheat, or cracked oats... I was like, that's fucking stupid.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Possibly.

Because you're going to have to provide a whole lot of evidence for something as extreme as "msg causes obesity" before I'm willing to accept that glutamate + sodium = obesity. The much more parsimonious and sensible conclusion is that Chinese cooking often has heavy sauces with lots of corn starch thickener, sugar, and white rice.

Kai, she didn't say "msg causes obesity". She said "msg is correlated with obesity" and even went on to state "of course, correlation does not equal causation", and added that she is simply being cautious until more is understood about the correlation.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So wait, on the one hand you want to bring more MSG into your diet because it stops you from craving junk food,

Also, I found out why bacon shuts down junk food cravings for me.  Apparently most junk food has MSG (even if it says 'no msg' thanks to crappy FDA regs) and while the 'Chinese restaurant syndrome' thing about MSG was completely bogus, MSG has an addictive effect according to one of my textbooks.

However high quality cuts of meat have glutamic acid, the nutrient MSG imitates the taste of, so the bacon satisfies the MSG craving.

and on the other hand you are worried that it stimulates overeating???

The concern isn't that MSG causes obesity, the concern is that MSG stimulates overeating.

That ... just doesn't make any sense at all.

However, its very tricky to have somebody increase or decrease MSG intake without also effecting everything else they eat (thus the rural china study being so important, completely different dietary habits are associated with MSG there), so we don't at this point, actually know for sure if it stimulates overeating or if it triggers people to eat more food with MSG (which is usually not good for you).

This is one of those better safe than sorry things.

And perhaps this puzzles me more, but, "better safe than sorry", better safe from what than sorry for what exactly?

You know, I am the first to jump Requia's shit when she says something that doesn't make sense, but in this case it seems like what she said made perfect sense, and it's being misconstrued for the purposes of jumping her shit.

1. There is a correlation between MSG and obesity.
2. No one is quite sure what that means.
3. It is thought that possibly MSG acts as an appetite stimulant, causing overeating.
4. Overeating is a cause of obesity. It does not make MSG a direct cause of obesity, but a contributing factor.
5. Requia tries to abstain from consuming MSG until the correlation is better understood.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as "better safe than sorry", any time there is an avoidable, poorly-understood food product that may or may not have negative effects on the body, not eating it is paying it "safe", whereas eating it anyway and ending up with unforeseen side effects would make you "sorry".

For instance, rather than play it "safe" by avoiding the shit, I went on a diet-soda kick for a few weeks last year. I got the runs something awful and my digestive system took ages to recover, making me "sorry".

Of course, lots of people will say that doesn't happen, even though it's a well-documented potential side effect of the current generations of artificial sweeteners.

[Triple Zero]

Well it's the looking for other sources of MSG bit that I don't understand, then. I mean, if you're rather safe than sorry.

Also in China they add insane amounts of MSG to their food, I wouldnt suggest doing that. I just sometimes add a pinch to a sauce or something.

[Requia ☣]

Er, no, I want to bring more glutamic acid into my diet.  Which stimulates the same tastebuds MSG does, but is a real nutrient (a specific amino acid), and lacks the associated addictive effects.

[Kai]

Er, no, I want to bring more glutamic acid into my diet.  Which stimulates the same tastebuds MSG does, but is a real nutrient (a specific amino acid), and lacks the associated addictive effects.

You do realize that mono sodium glutamate is just Na + glutamate aka glutamic acid, right? You can SALT a fresh tomato and end up with MSG, because sodium helps bind the glutamate to your umami receptors. Thats why umami foods tend to be salty. Its the same thing, just part of your food rather than added to it, and in smaller concentrations.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Er, no, I want to bring more glutamic acid into my diet.  Which stimulates the same tastebuds MSG does, but is a real nutrient (a specific amino acid), and lacks the associated addictive effects.

You do realize that mono sodium glutamate is just Na + glutamate aka glutamic acid, right? You can SALT a fresh tomato and end up with MSG, because sodium helps bind the glutamate to your umami receptors. Thats why umami foods tend to be salty. Its the same thing, just part of your food rather than added to it, and in smaller concentrations.

I am geeked out.

That takes some doing.

[Requia ☣]

Er, no, I want to bring more glutamic acid into my diet.  Which stimulates the same tastebuds MSG does, but is a real nutrient (a specific amino acid), and lacks the associated addictive effects.

You do realize that mono sodium glutamate is just Na + glutamate aka glutamic acid, right? You can SALT a fresh tomato and end up with MSG, because sodium helps bind the glutamate to your umami receptors. Thats why umami foods tend to be salty. Its the same thing, just part of your food rather than added to it, and in smaller concentrations.

*checks* Ah, you're right.  Scratch that idea then.

[Kai]

Er, no, I want to bring more glutamic acid into my diet.  Which stimulates the same tastebuds MSG does, but is a real nutrient (a specific amino acid), and lacks the associated addictive effects.

You do realize that mono sodium glutamate is just Na + glutamate aka glutamic acid, right? You can SALT a fresh tomato and end up with MSG, because sodium helps bind the glutamate to your umami receptors. Thats why umami foods tend to be salty. Its the same thing, just part of your food rather than added to it, and in smaller concentrations.

*checks* Ah, you're right.  Scratch that idea then.

I think you're on the right track though. It comes back to people eating the things not only that they were nurtured to enjoy, but that they are genetically programmed to seek out from the ancestral survival instincts. We're programmed (for the most part) to enjoy fatty foods with lots of carbs, because fat means long term energy and carbs means high energy materials. And glutamate is a sign of proteins, in meat and other substances. We eat it because it feels good and it feels good because, ultimately, it would mean either surviving a winter or dying. Back then, too much was less dangerous than too little. These days it's more equally so.