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This must be that "population-centric counterinsurgency" thing I keep hearing...

Started by Cain, September 07, 2009, 04:36:47 PM

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Cain

September 07, 2009, 04:36:47 PM
about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8224147.stm

QuoteUS and Afghan forces attacked a clinic in eastern Afghanistan where a Taliban leader was being treated for injuries he sustained last week, Nato has said.

They were fired upon when they neared the clinic in the Sar Hawza district of Paktika province, and responded by ordering helicopter strikes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5850OH20090906?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

QuoteIn a statement issued on Sunday, the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan (SCA) said soldiers had entered its hospital in Wardak, south of Kabul, on Wednesday evening without explanation and conducted a search, including of female wards and toilets.

"Upon entering the hospital they tied up four employees and two family members of patients at the hospital. SCA staff as well as patients (even those in beds) were forced out of rooms/wards throughout the search," SCA said in a statement.

Or, as the NYT put it http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/world/asia/08kabul.html:

QuoteA Swedish aid agency said Monday that American soldiers stormed through one of its hospitals in Afghanistan last week, searching men's and women's wards for wounded Taliban fighters, breaking down doors, and tying up hospital staffers and visitors.

The soldiers also demanded that administrators at the hospital inform military authorities of any incoming patients who might be insurgents. After that, the military would decide if the patients would be admitted.

Woohoo, hearts and minds! 

(The stupidity of this is impressed on me more than it would ordinarily be, since I am reading Tom Rick's The Gamble, which details how Petraeus, Cohen and Kilcullen created their own little military insurgency to get the US armed forces to stop acting like such fucking morons in Iraq, only to see the same mistakes being repeated in Afghanistan).

The Good Reverend Roger

#1
September 07, 2009, 07:01:22 PM
Wow.  Do we have to relearn this shit EVERY WAR?

:lulz:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

#2
September 07, 2009, 07:23:12 PM
McChrystal apparently understands it, but his troops seem disinclined to obey orders like "don't drop 20 ton bombs on oil tankers unless you know they are insurgents and it has been confirmed no civilians are nearby" or "if you have the choice between an action that alienates the population or lets an insurgent escape, choose the latter" and other, common sense dictums of counterinsurgency (to me, this all seems bloody obvious anyway, but I had a misspent youth reading CIA guerrilla manuals, and Mao's Guerrilla Warfare, both of which, I understand, West Point frown upon).

The Good Reverend Roger

#3
September 07, 2009, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2009, 07:23:12 PM
McChrystal apparently understands it, but his troops seem disinclined to obey orders like "don't drop 20 ton bombs on oil tankers unless you know they are insurgents and it has been confirmed no civilians are nearby" or "if you have the choice between an action that alienates the population or lets an insurgent escape, choose the latter" and other, common sense dictums of counterinsurgency (to me, this all seems bloody obvious anyway, but I had a misspent youth reading CIA guerrilla manuals, and Mao's Guerrilla Warfare, both of which, I understand, West Point frown upon).

Um, I had to read Mao's lectures on guerrilla warfare when I was in the 10th, lo these many years ago.

Of course, the 10th is a counter-insurgency unit...which makes me wonder how they got so DUMB.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

#4
September 07, 2009, 07:35:13 PM
Oh?  Must've fallen out of favour more recently, then.  As I understand it, the last few years has been a running fight between the (mangled interpretation of) Clausewitz supporters and Sun Tzu supporters, and no-one else ever gets a look in.  

The truly tragic thing is David Galula's book spelled out counterinsurgency perfectly 50 years ago, and has been gathering dust on the shelf ever since.  RAND dusted off their copy a couple of years back and put it on the net...it was briefly popular among the COINdinista insurgency in the Army and DoD ranks, but apparently all these guys are still in Iraq or something.

The Good Reverend Roger

#5
September 07, 2009, 07:42:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2009, 07:35:13 PM
Oh?  Must've fallen out of favour more recently, then.  As I understand it, the last few years has been a running fight between the (mangled interpretation of) Clausewitz supporters and Sun Tzu supporters, and no-one else ever gets a look in.  

The truly tragic thing is David Galula's book spelled out counterinsurgency perfectly 50 years ago, and has been gathering dust on the shelf ever since.  RAND dusted off their copy a couple of years back and put it on the net...it was briefly popular among the COINdinista insurgency in the Army and DoD ranks, but apparently all these guys are still in Iraq or something.

Naw.  The army never liked having us read anything by commies, even if it was, you know, the very book the enemy was using against us.

Our first commanding general's career (MG Peter Boylan) was ruined by decisions like that, and he "retired" in 1992.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.
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