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Okay, so what the jabbering fuck IS "eprime", anygoddamnway?

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, October 06, 2009, 11:16:20 PM

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Requia ☣

#61
October 07, 2009, 08:35:43 PM
From that thread.

Quote from: Cain on July 14, 2007, 02:14:01 PM
E-prime removes Platonic assumptions about the nature of reality from language and replaces it with a more subjective analysis.

When you say "something is something" what you are essentially saying is that the object in question shares the essence of the trait you are describing.  Therefore, if you say "Saddam Hussein is evil" you are not only making an assumption about the existence and nature of evil, you are also saying Saddam is an avatar of sorts for this trait.

It brings all sort of implicit assumptions that can create very nasty side effects.  It is no coincidence that both Christianity and Fascism can be traced back to Plato.  The basic assumptions of the existence of transcendental absolutes has always been a recipe for disaster in the hands of apes.  Because apes are thick as bricks and if they believe some group is harbouring the essence of evil, then they are totally justified in wiping it out, be it Jews or Heathens.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

hooplala

#62
October 07, 2009, 08:42:27 PM
I will admit, though, it always kills the FUNNAY.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)" — Walt Whitman

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

#63
October 07, 2009, 10:12:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 07, 2009, 08:02:46 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 07, 2009, 07:55:43 PM
Some people feel that the language they use helps shape they way the think and see the world around them.

They're wrong.  Language is how they describe the world around them.  It's like mistaking math for science. 


Alfred Korzybski disagreed with that view. Which is why he began the development of General Semantics. That system holds that language and thought are a two way street... We use language to describe the world we see, AND the language we use modifies our perception of what we see (bars in our BIP). If we say "X is Y" our brain records that and tends to stick with that as a FACT. E-Prime was intended to remove that IS and surround it with actual meaning.

"TGRR is an ass" therefore, would make it easy to believe/know/conclude that TGRR is an ass.

"TGRR appears as an Ass on PD.com when dealing with ignorance, stupidity and pinealism" makes it clear that TGRR might not be an ass all the time.*

There is a more complex linguistic theory called the Sapier-Whorf Hypothesis which takes this concept to a much deeper level and claims that societies tend to perceive reality in a way that is heavily modified by the language that they use. Some of the extreme examples they documented, included a group of natives in South America which perceive the past and future in an extremely different way than most humans. The hypothesis claims that this is an influence of the words they use to describe the past and future.

Another society perceives 5 different sexes, rather than just two. The hypothesis claims that this is also (at least partially) based on the language they use.

There are places where its extremely useful... generally in documenting observations for a scientific purpose. The old RAW example:

"Light is a wave"
"Light is a particle"
vs.
"Light can be measured as a particle using instrument X"
"Light can be measured as a wave using instrument Y"

The two former would lead to a static view in the mind of the individual that Light IS a wave or particle... whereas the e-primed versions make the observation more clear.


- Rat



* This is just an example, I would never accuse you of not being an Ass all the time ;-)



- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

The Good Reverend Roger

#64
October 07, 2009, 10:18:24 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on October 07, 2009, 10:12:50 PM
* This is just an example, I would never accuse you of not being an Ass all the time ;-)

Good.  I was gonna have to lose my mind.

Up in here, up in here.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cramulus

#65
October 07, 2009, 10:44:58 PM
I think over 3/4ths of my posts are in e-prime, or in the spirit of e-prime.

I find that sensitivity towards language helpful in organizing my own thoughts and clearly articulating what I mean. It's a very precise use of language, but like scientific language, it isn't for every situation.


I suspect many people don't actually find the usage of e-prime annoying, so much as they find the word e-prime annoying. (Perhaps due to raw associations?) Reminds me of the word "meme" that gradually became really annoying to some people around here. I probably post more about memetics now than I did before the NO MORE MEME blitz, but have avoided using the word itself. (for memetic reasons  :p) It seems like discussion about memetics doesn't bug people, the usage of the word memetics bugs people.

The Good Reverend Roger

#66
October 07, 2009, 10:47:52 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2009, 10:44:58 PM
I suspect many people don't actually find the usage of e-prime annoying, so much as they find the word e-prime annoying.

Probably.  Also, I am a very subjective person, and I tend to make strong statements (in case anyone missed that).

Also, eprime is far too polite as a concept for me to deal with properly.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cramulus

#68
October 07, 2009, 10:53:34 PM
okay okay okay okay okay

:news:

From now on, E'' (pronounced: "e double-prime") is the opposite of e-prime. It's phrasing everything in absolute language.




Sometimes known as Roger Prime



             for example:

"Anarchists have brain damage."

"4E is not D&D"

"Your mother is a whore."

The Good Reverend Roger

#69
October 07, 2009, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2009, 10:53:34 PM
okay okay okay okay okay

:news:

From now on, E'' (pronounced: "e double-prime") is the opposite of e-prime. It's phrasing everything in absolute language.




Sometimes known as Roger Prime



             for example:

"Anarchists have brain damage."

"4E is not D&D"

"Your mother is a whore."



THIS IS A GOOD IDEA.  END OF FUCKING STORY.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cramulus

#70
October 07, 2009, 11:20:04 PM
it only appears that way 
                  /
:judge:

Iason Ouabache

#71
October 07, 2009, 11:26:42 PM
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
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LMNO

#72
October 07, 2009, 11:27:03 PM
CRAM WINS EVERYTHING.

Golden Applesauce

#73
October 07, 2009, 11:38:47 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 07, 2009, 10:53:34 PM
okay okay okay okay okay

:news:

From now on, E'' (pronounced: "e double-prime") is the opposite of e-prime. It's phrasing everything in absolute language.




Sometimes known as Roger Prime



             for example:

"Anarchists have brain damage."

"4E is not D&D"

"Your mother is a whore."

I might have to try this - I tend to pseudo e-prime my statements (and I think I've been doing it for years) more out of a concern for strict literal truthfulness.  I don't want to overstate my knowledge; and when I do overstate my knowledge I'm often lying on purpose.

I will try this.  I have e-primed statements.  I intended to never to overstate my knowledge.  When I intended to overstate my knowledge, I also intended to lie,
Q: How regularly do you hire 8th graders?
A: We have hired a number of FORMER 8th graders.

The Good Reverend Roger

#74
October 07, 2009, 11:40:27 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 07, 2009, 11:26:42 PM
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

SOMEBODY WOMP ME!  THROW THE SWITCH, IGOR!  THROW THE FUCKING SWITCH!
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.
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