Cocaine Vaccine

[MornTheOrator]

1.  It's meant to be one available tool.  Its usefulness in fact depends on the addict's personality.  It's not just strange--it's lateral thinking!
2.  Can't be seen to give addicts the drug they need, not even a placebo.  Law, and all.  If it were that easy, there'd be little reason to quit!

Well, assuming that laws say you cannot lie about what you give people. Then you also have to tell them you give them a thing that lessens the effect of cocaine. You can also tell them 'this is a half strength cocaine pill', also, there are a lot of chemical substances known already that neutralize cocaine so you could also give them that.

I don't really see any advantage this new, though scientifically interesting, drug has on a practical level.

I still deny that I fuck my sister of whatever, they got an extremely exaggerated piece of text she wrote that also claimed I came from Mars amongst other things and just picked those two out.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I still deny that I fuck my sister of whatever, they got an extremely exaggerated piece of text she wrote that also claimed I came from Mars amongst other things and just picked those two out.

You also lied about what gender you are.

Why is that, Morn?  Were you trying to make yourself look less likely to be a predator?  Sorry, fucknuts, we don't have any little girls on this forum.

[Template]

1.  It's meant to be one available tool.  Its usefulness in fact depends on the addict's personality.  It's not just strange--it's lateral thinking!
2.  Can't be seen to give addicts the drug they need, not even a placebo.  Law, and all.  If it were that easy, there'd be little reason to quit!

Well, assuming that laws say you cannot lie about what you give people. Then you also have to tell them you give them a thing that lessens the effect of cocaine. You can also tell them 'this is a half strength cocaine pill', also, there are a lot of chemical substances known already that neutralize cocaine so you could also give them that.

I don't really see any advantage this new, though scientifically interesting, drug has on a practical level.

Why rely on the placebo effect only?  Claiming that you're delivering cocaine is probably pretty suspicious, too.  Like, "DEA is watching YOU" suspicious.

The vaccination method has a longer effective lifespan, I think.

[Thurnez Isa]

1.  It's meant to be one available tool.  Its usefulness in fact depends on the addict's personality.  It's not just strange--it's lateral thinking!
2.  Can't be seen to give addicts the drug they need, not even a placebo.  Law, and all.  If it were that easy, there'd be little reason to quit!

Well, assuming that laws say you cannot lie about what you give people. Then you also have to tell them you give them a thing that lessens the effect of cocaine. You can also tell them 'this is a half strength cocaine pill', also, there are a lot of chemical substances known already that neutralize cocaine so you could also give them that.

cause placebos by definition don't work, even if it makes you think it does, and yes even for addictions
I hope to fucking Buddha I don't have to explain this shit to you
cause I'm not going to

[Thurnez Isa]

I still deny that I fuck my sister of whatever, they got an extremely exaggerated piece of text she wrote that also claimed I came from Mars amongst other things and just picked those two out.

You also lied about what gender you are.

Why is that, Morn?  Were you trying to make yourself look less likely to be a predator?  Sorry, fucknuts, we don't have any little girls on this forum.

LIES

..Roger is a fairy princess...

[MornTheOrator]

1.  It's meant to be one available tool.  Its usefulness in fact depends on the addict's personality.  It's not just strange--it's lateral thinking!
2.  Can't be seen to give addicts the drug they need, not even a placebo.  Law, and all.  If it were that easy, there'd be little reason to quit!

Well, assuming that laws say you cannot lie about what you give people. Then you also have to tell them you give them a thing that lessens the effect of cocaine. You can also tell them 'this is a half strength cocaine pill', also, there are a lot of chemical substances known already that neutralize cocaine so you could also give them that.

I don't really see any advantage this new, though scientifically interesting, drug has on a practical level.

Why rely on the placebo effect only?  Claiming that you're delivering cocaine is probably pretty suspicious, too.

The vaccination method has a longer effective lifespan, I think.

Oh, no, I mean a placebo cocaine pill. You know an inert pill that looks like cocaine. Why go through all that trouble if you A: give them a cocaine pill. B: a thing that makes the cocaine pill less effective if you can also give them less effective or ineffective cocaine?

At least, I'm not completely sure how long cocaine stays in your system but it can't be extremely long since you have to keep retaking.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I still deny that I fuck my sister of whatever, they got an extremely exaggerated piece of text she wrote that also claimed I came from Mars amongst other things and just picked those two out.

You also lied about what gender you are.

Why is that, Morn?  Were you trying to make yourself look less likely to be a predator?  Sorry, fucknuts, we don't have any little girls on this forum.

LIES

..Roger is a fairy princess...

But not a LITTLE fairy princess.

[MornTheOrator]

I still deny that I fuck my sister of whatever, they got an extremely exaggerated piece of text she wrote that also claimed I came from Mars amongst other things and just picked those two out.

You also lied about what gender you are.

Why is that, Morn?  Were you trying to make yourself look less likely to be a predator?  Sorry, fucknuts, we don't have any little girls on this forum.

LIES

..Roger is a fairy princess...

But not a LITTLE fairy princess.

The obvious reason I only lied to you of course.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I still deny that I fuck my sister of whatever, they got an extremely exaggerated piece of text she wrote that also claimed I came from Mars amongst other things and just picked those two out.

You also lied about what gender you are.

Why is that, Morn?  Were you trying to make yourself look less likely to be a predator?  Sorry, fucknuts, we don't have any little girls on this forum.

LIES

..Roger is a fairy princess...

But not a LITTLE fairy princess.

The obvious reason I only lied to you of course.

Uh huh.

We're not talking WITH you right now, we're talking ABOUT you.

Try to keep up, pedo-boy.

[Template]

1.  It's meant to be one available tool.  Its usefulness in fact depends on the addict's personality.  It's not just strange--it's lateral thinking!
2.  Can't be seen to give addicts the drug they need, not even a placebo.  Law, and all.  If it were that easy, there'd be little reason to quit!

Well, assuming that laws say you cannot lie about what you give people. Then you also have to tell them you give them a thing that lessens the effect of cocaine. You can also tell them 'this is a half strength cocaine pill', also, there are a lot of chemical substances known already that neutralize cocaine so you could also give them that.

I don't really see any advantage this new, though scientifically interesting, drug has on a practical level.

Why rely on the placebo effect only?  Claiming that you're delivering cocaine is probably pretty suspicious, too.

The vaccination method has a longer effective lifespan, I think.

Oh, no, I mean a placebo cocaine pill. You know an inert pill that looks like cocaine. Why go through all that trouble if you A: give them a cocaine pill. B: a thing that makes the cocaine pill less effective if you can also give them less effective or ineffective cocaine?

At least, I'm not completely sure how long cocaine stays in your system but it can't be extremely long since you have to keep retaking.

Look, if you're going to deal in inferior drugs, you're going to be supplanted by a dealer of average or better drugs.

I repeat, the DEA won't care if you have a cocaine-knockouter on hand, but you will have so many forms and audits if you routinely give out a cocaine or cocaine simulant.

Also, on a tangent, I heard that methadone withdrawal is worse than heroin w/d.

[MornTheOrator]

1.  It's meant to be one available tool.  Its usefulness in fact depends on the addict's personality.  It's not just strange--it's lateral thinking!
2.  Can't be seen to give addicts the drug they need, not even a placebo.  Law, and all.  If it were that easy, there'd be little reason to quit!

Well, assuming that laws say you cannot lie about what you give people. Then you also have to tell them you give them a thing that lessens the effect of cocaine. You can also tell them 'this is a half strength cocaine pill', also, there are a lot of chemical substances known already that neutralize cocaine so you could also give them that.

I don't really see any advantage this new, though scientifically interesting, drug has on a practical level.

Why rely on the placebo effect only?  Claiming that you're delivering cocaine is probably pretty suspicious, too.

The vaccination method has a longer effective lifespan, I think.

Oh, no, I mean a placebo cocaine pill. You know an inert pill that looks like cocaine. Why go through all that trouble if you A: give them a cocaine pill. B: a thing that makes the cocaine pill less effective if you can also give them less effective or ineffective cocaine?

At least, I'm not completely sure how long cocaine stays in your system but it can't be extremely long since you have to keep retaking.

Look, if you're going to deal in inferior drugs, you're going to be supplanted by a dealer of average or better drugs.

I repeat, the DEA won't care if you have a cocaine-knockouter on hand, but you will have so many forms and audits if you routinely give out a cocaine or cocaine simulant.

I don't think I get you here.

on a tangent, I heard that methadone withdrawal is worse than heroin w/d.

Well, what I understood is that the function of heroin is about what happens if you get an orgasm, but then times a 100. Cocaine is a huge boost of how you feel at that point and can shift either way, also weed works like this and also Ritalin (which is chemically extremely similar to cocaine and cross-dependent) so I can imagine that your mind gets more dependent on the latter things than the former. Also because cocaine, like Ritalin, boosts the concentration and senses as a side effect, so if you're not feeling well you are going to see things you don't like. Which is also why people with schizophrenia or psychosis-potential people should never be given cocaine and often are advised against weed unless they are completely relaxed as it can induce a psychosis.

Or so I gathered, it's probably more complex than this.

[AFK]

I'm trying deeply to find beneficial effect of this drug that seems to be a cocaine blocker that uses the immune system as a bypass that goes far beyond simply taking less cocaine, or taking no cocaine at all. Thus far I am bested by this problem of life.

Maybe one day.

The vaccine works by stimulating the immune system to create anti-cocaine antibodies that attach themselves to cocaine molecules in the blood, making them too large to pass into the brain. Researchers found that 38 percent of subjects were able to produce antibodies in sufficient amounts to block cocaine's effects, and of these, 53 percent were abstinent more than half the time during the study period, compared to 23 percent of the control group.

The high-antibody group also had more cocaine-free urine samples overall than those who received the placebo or generated lower levels of antibodies. "In this study immunization did not achieve complete abstinence from cocaine use," said lead researcher Thomas Kosten, M.D., of the Baylor College of Medicine. "Previous research has shown, however, that a reduction in use is associated with a significant improvement in cocaine abusers' social functioning and thus is therapeutically meaningful."

In other words, it isn't a silver bullet, nor is it being posited as one.  It is ONE tool to combat cocaine addiction, and obviously as evident by the numbers, it isn't for everyone.  Just as not everyone who quits smoking quits thanks to the patch. 

[MornTheOrator]

I'm trying deeply to find beneficial effect of this drug that seems to be a cocaine blocker that uses the immune system as a bypass that goes far beyond simply taking less cocaine, or taking no cocaine at all. Thus far I am bested by this problem of life.

Maybe one day.

The vaccine works by stimulating the immune system to create anti-cocaine antibodies that attach themselves to cocaine molecules in the blood, making them too large to pass into the brain. Researchers found that 38 percent of subjects were able to produce antibodies in sufficient amounts to block cocaine's effects, and of these, 53 percent were abstinent more than half the time during the study period, compared to 23 percent of the control group.

The high-antibody group also had more cocaine-free urine samples overall than those who received the placebo or generated lower levels of antibodies. "In this study immunization did not achieve complete abstinence from cocaine use," said lead researcher Thomas Kosten, M.D., of the Baylor College of Medicine. "Previous research has shown, however, that a reduction in use is associated with a significant improvement in cocaine abusers' social functioning and thus is therapeutically meaningful."

In other words, it isn't a silver bullet, nor is it being posited as one.  It is ONE tool to combat cocaine addiction, and obviously as evident by the numbers, it isn't for everyone.  Just as not everyone who quits smoking quits thanks to the patch. 

Yeah, but what is the 'control group', I assume the control group gets no therapy whatsoever here.

I mean, what happens if you pit it against another already established therapy for quitting? Maybe there are a view people out there to which this therapy is the optimal solution but I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't.

[AFK]

I'm trying deeply to find beneficial effect of this drug that seems to be a cocaine blocker that uses the immune system as a bypass that goes far beyond simply taking less cocaine, or taking no cocaine at all. Thus far I am bested by this problem of life.

Maybe one day.

The vaccine works by stimulating the immune system to create anti-cocaine antibodies that attach themselves to cocaine molecules in the blood, making them too large to pass into the brain. Researchers found that 38 percent of subjects were able to produce antibodies in sufficient amounts to block cocaine's effects, and of these, 53 percent were abstinent more than half the time during the study period, compared to 23 percent of the control group.

The high-antibody group also had more cocaine-free urine samples overall than those who received the placebo or generated lower levels of antibodies. "In this study immunization did not achieve complete abstinence from cocaine use," said lead researcher Thomas Kosten, M.D., of the Baylor College of Medicine. "Previous research has shown, however, that a reduction in use is associated with a significant improvement in cocaine abusers' social functioning and thus is therapeutically meaningful."

In other words, it isn't a silver bullet, nor is it being posited as one.  It is ONE tool to combat cocaine addiction, and obviously as evident by the numbers, it isn't for everyone.  Just as not everyone who quits smoking quits thanks to the patch. 

Yeah, but what is the 'control group', I assume the control group gets no therapy whatsoever here.

Umm, control group got a placebo.  Did you even bother to read the article? 

I mean, what happens if you pit it against another already established therapy for quitting? Maybe there are a view people out there to which this therapy is the optimal solution but I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't.

Well, clearly the results state otherwise.  If this didn't work than there would be no statistically significant difference between the experiment group and the control group.  For some people, therapy works.  But there is a population of drug users who do need some kind of medical intervention. 

[MornTheOrator]

Umm, control group got a placebo.  Did you even bother to read the article?

Yeah, and as I said before, I want to know if they got a placebo of the drug, or a placebo cocaine pill + no drug.

I mean, the pill is to neutralize cocaine's effects, you can just as easily give them an inert pill and claim it's cocaine.

Well, clearly the results state otherwise.  If this didn't work than there would be no statistically significant difference between the experiment group and the control group.  For some people, therapy works.  But there is a population of drug users who do need some kind of medical intervention. 

No, the article is vague about if the control group got another already established therapy (if so, which one?) or no therapy at all, a difference.

Of course it's going to be better than no therapy at all, I want to know if it's better than already established therapies.