Cocaine Vaccine

[rong]

THIS IS ABUSE!

[MornTheOrator]

THIS IS ABUSE!

I kind of liked Morn more than Dark Helmet, probably because a non speaking recurring extra having an episode dedicated to him and almost getting the last lines of the series is kind of unique.

[rong]

[img]http://www.smidgy.com/smidgy/images/2007/07/26/lol_cat_staringcontest.jpg/img]

[MornTheOrator]

That's kind of cute, it did take me effort to copy the link though.

[AFK]

Umm, control group got a placebo.  Did you even bother to read the article?

Yeah, and as I said before, I want to know if they got a placebo of the drug, or a placebo cocaine pill + no drug.

I mean, the pill is to neutralize cocaine's effects, you can just as easily give them an inert pill and claim it's cocaine.

No.  Everyone in the experiment is a cocaine user.  Experimental AND Control.  The Experimental group is cocaine users who got the cocaine vaccine.  The Control group is cocaine users who got the placebo.  got it?

Well, clearly the results state otherwise.  If this didn't work than there would be no statistically significant difference between the experiment group and the control group.  For some people, therapy works.  But there is a population of drug users who do need some kind of medical intervention. 

No, the article is vague about if the control group got another already established therapy (if so, which one?) or no therapy at all, a difference.

Of course it's going to be better than no therapy at all, I want to know if it's better than already established therapies.

They aren't studying drug therapy, they are studying the efficacy of a cocaine vaccine.  It's not about it being better, it's about whether it works at all.  And then it will be like any other prescription drug.  It would be prescribed if it is best for the patient. 

[Template]

Umm, control group got a placebo.  Did you even bother to read the article?

Yeah, and as I said before, I want to know if they got a placebo of the drug, or a placebo cocaine pill + no drug.

I mean, the pill is to neutralize cocaine's effects, you can just as easily give them an inert pill and claim it's cocaine.

Well, clearly the results state otherwise.  If this didn't work than there would be no statistically significant difference between the experiment group and the control group.  For some people, therapy works.  But there is a population of drug users who do need some kind of medical intervention. 

No, the article is vague about if the control group got another already established therapy (if so, which one?) or no therapy at all, a difference.

Of course it's going to be better than no therapy at all, I want to know if it's better than already established therapies.

Well, if you bothered to even skim the article as an internet-aware human, you'd notice a link to a better source:
http://nida.nih.gov/newsroom/09/NR10-05.html
, wherein you would find this paragraph.

This study included 115 patients from a methadone maintenance program who were randomly assigned to receive the anti-cocaine vaccine or a placebo (inactive) vaccine. Participants were recruited from a methadone maintenance program because their retention rates are substantially better than programs focused primarily on treatment for cocaine abuse. Participants in both groups received five vaccinations over a 12-week period and were followed for an additional 12 weeks. All participants also took part in weekly relapse-prevention therapy sessions with a trained substance abuse counselor, had their blood tested for antibodies to cocaine, and had their urine tested three times a week for the presence of opioids and cocaine.

[MornTheOrator]

Umm, control group got a placebo.  Did you even bother to read the article?

Yeah, and as I said before, I want to know if they got a placebo of the drug, or a placebo cocaine pill + no drug.

I mean, the pill is to neutralize cocaine's effects, you can just as easily give them an inert pill and claim it's cocaine.

No.  Everyone in the experiment is a cocaine user.  Experimental AND Control.  The Experimental group is cocaine users who got the cocaine vaccine.  The Control group is cocaine users who got the placebo.  got it?

I didn't ask that. I asked if the placebo was a placebo cocaine pill or a placebo vaccine.

yhnmzw has answered my issue though, thank you, no, I didn't skim through it that properly.

So, there is still no proof that this 'vaccine' works better than either giving them underpowered cocaine, placebo cocaine or a classical chemical cocaine neutralized that does not use the human immune system but simply neutralizes cocaine on a chemical level.

[Thurnez Isa]

I mean, the pill is to neutralize cocaine's effects, you can just as easily give them an inert pill and claim it's cocaine.

No did you even read the article?

[Thurnez Isa]

Umm, control group got a placebo.  Did you even bother to read the article?

Yeah, and as I said before, I want to know if they got a placebo of the drug, or a placebo cocaine pill + no drug.

I mean, the pill is to neutralize cocaine's effects, you can just as easily give them an inert pill and claim it's cocaine.

No.  Everyone in the experiment is a cocaine user.  Experimental AND Control.  The Experimental group is cocaine users who got the cocaine vaccine.  The Control group is cocaine users who got the placebo.  got it?

I didn't ask that. I asked if the placebo was a placebo cocaine pill or a placebo vaccine.

yhnmzw has answered my issue though, thank you, no, I didn't skim through it that properly.

So, there is still no proof that this 'vaccine' works better than either giving them underpowered cocaine, placebo cocaine or a classical chemical cocaine neutralized that does not use the human immune system but simply neutralizes cocaine on a chemical level.

No, thats not what it said...

Attaining high (≥43 µg/mL) IgG anticocaine antibody levels was associated with significantly reduced cocaine use, but only 38% of the vaccinated subjects attained these IgG levels and they had only 2 months of adequate cocaine blockade. Thus, we need improved vaccines and boosters.

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/10/1116

It worked better then the placebo, or "was associated with significantly reduced cocaine use", but doing better then placebo is apparently not that hard, since "only 38% of the vaccinated subjects attained these IgG levels and they had only 2 months of adequate cocaine blockade", but since it actually works better then the placebo they "need improved vaccines and boosters," to create a vaccine that is ready for public use, and help the people in need of the vaccine and hopefully return the investment made by the backers on this research.

[Thurnez Isa]

maybe if they had little anime girls in it or something you would have actually read the article

[MornTheOrator]

It worked better then the placebo, or "was associated with significantly reduced cocaine use", but doing better then placebo is apparently not that hard, since "only 38% of the vaccinated subjects attained these IgG levels and they had only 2 months of adequate cocaine blockade", but since it actually works better then the placebo they "need improved vaccines and boosters," to create a vaccine that is ready for public use, and help the people in need of the vaccine and hopefully return the investment made by the backers on this research.

Sigh... it worked better than a placebo vaccine.

I wanted to know if it also works better than feeding then placebo cocaine, as I made clear ten times already.

[rong]

can you get vaccinated against placebos?

[AFK]

It worked better then the placebo, or "was associated with significantly reduced cocaine use", but doing better then placebo is apparently not that hard, since "only 38% of the vaccinated subjects attained these IgG levels and they had only 2 months of adequate cocaine blockade", but since it actually works better then the placebo they "need improved vaccines and boosters," to create a vaccine that is ready for public use, and help the people in need of the vaccine and hopefully return the investment made by the backers on this research.

Sigh... it worked better than a placebo vaccine.

I wanted to know if it also works better than feeding then placebo cocaine, as I made clear ten times already.

The only difference between the two groups is that one vaccine is the cocaine vaccine and the other is not, it's a placebo.  Everything else is the same.  The results show what when the vaccine is the cocaine vaccine, there is a higher level of abstinence and clean urine readings.  Everything else is the same.  That is what is being studied, the impact the vaccine has on levels of abstinence.  It is really that simple.  

[MornTheOrator]

It worked better then the placebo, or "was associated with significantly reduced cocaine use", but doing better then placebo is apparently not that hard, since "only 38% of the vaccinated subjects attained these IgG levels and they had only 2 months of adequate cocaine blockade", but since it actually works better then the placebo they "need improved vaccines and boosters," to create a vaccine that is ready for public use, and help the people in need of the vaccine and hopefully return the investment made by the backers on this research.

Sigh... it worked better than a placebo vaccine.

I wanted to know if it also works better than feeding then placebo cocaine, as I made clear ten times already.

The only difference between the two groups is that one vaccine is the cocaine vaccine and the other is not, it's a placebo.  Everything else is the same.  The results show what when the vaccine is the cocaine vaccine, there is a higher level of abstinence and clean urine readings.  Everything else is the same.  That is what is being studied, the impact the vaccine has on levels of abstinence.  It is really that simple.  

Yes, I know that. I don't question the research, I question the practical implication, as I said before, it's interesting on a scientific level, but probably not on a practical level because some older things probably work better. Like placebo cocain pills. Which is also a trick, you just give them fake cocain pills they think are real to let them abstain.

[Thurnez Isa]

because its the same effect
"This is a drug that will make you better" - but of course the drug doesn't actually exist
"This is the drug that your addicted do and taking it here in smaller margins will make you better" - but of course the drug doesn't actually exist.

and they have studied cocaine placebos since the 70's and the still do study it
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1864767,00.html

it's a different treatment (Im not going to repeat with RWHN said so look back) ... and since they have been studying it for years now, and nothing has come of it, despite a couple of positive sounding news articles, I wouldn't be holding my breath on it
When you test treatments you don't test your treatment against someone elses treatment. You test it against your treatment, so you could try to falsify your hypothesis. \
No treatment is going to be 100 % effective so you have to a variety of ... Now Im repeating RWHN