Pharm parties-Rx abuse

[AFK]

I'm not sure anyone who does legitimate work in the field is in the business of making light of this issue.  News organizations will exaggerate stories and use crass phrases like "eating handfulls of pills", but anyone doing any kind of evidence-based work or research is generally more measured in their language.  Yeah, in that other thread I mentioned "popping them like skittles", which was meant to mean, one at a time, but this is on a message board, I certainly don't use that kind of language in a professional setting. 

I am talking about the sensationalistic articles that use inflammatory verbiage like that, and wording that states that they put them in a bowl and eat random handfuls, while drinking alcohol.

Well, when this happens in a social setting it very frequently WILL involve alcohol, so that part is not false.  Again, I personally am not aware of a plethora of articles that literally write, "kids are eating them by the handful".  But, then again, I read mostly articles written by professionals in the field.  Not hack journalists from local newspapers.  And we have no control over them.  But I don't really think they are that prominent.  Or maybe I just live in a state where we have more reasonable journalists, I don't know. 

That's so dangerous it's more or less a guarantee of at least one serious overdose per party, and articles that spread that kind of incredible hyperbole really do a disservice, IMO, to people in your line of work who are trying to find solutions to the real problem. I think people hear stories like that and tend to dismiss them out of hand, because an epidemic of kids eating mixed handfuls of unknown prescription drugs (without a commensurate epidemic of OD deaths from those parties) is fairly difficult to find plausible.

Sure.  But I submit what you are describing is not all that prevalent, compared to the reasonably stories and articles and studies that describe what is happening which IS at parties.  And they aren't handfulls, but even at one at a time, the dangers are very real.

[Captain Utopia]

You didn't answer the question.  If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do?  Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking?  Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment. 

Or a variation thereof, yes. For similar reasons as to why I don't think abstinence-only sex-education is effective, and counter-productive when kids don't end up knowing anything about contraception.

That is a stupid analogy.  Safe sex is, well, safe.  There is no such thing as safe Rx misuse, for the reasons I stated in my response to Babylon.  One pill could put you in the hospital, depending on what it is.  They are prescribed to adults in adult dosages for adult ailments.  And again, when this use happens in a social setting, aka a party, you can be damned sure alcohol is in the mix.  What you are suggesting WILL result in death.  No question about it. 

No. The only "safe sex" is abstinence, as there are risks associated with every form of contraception. But the analogy only goes as far as "this is something your child may attempt, despite your wishes - if so, it might be better if they know enough to choose behaviour which is relatively less risky".

For sure. Look, I am aware of the danger, just from my own experiences I'm not convinced that "just say no"/zero tolerance is the best approach.

No, indeed you are not aware of the real danger.  And what I do is not as menial as "just say no".  It's about educating, giving science-based facts on substance abuse.  It is all researched.  And from what I know, and what I've read, and what I've heard, it simply would be irresponsible to even hint to an adolescent that it would be okay to abuse Rx drugs, just so long as they know the name of the pill they are swallowing.  Nevermind the facts but can you imagine the lawsuits I would be exposing my agency too?  I suggest that YOU need to do some more research yourself.  You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. 

Bolded the parts I don't dispute, for your convenience.

That's so dangerous it's more or less a guarantee of at least one serious overdose per party, and articles that spread that kind of incredible hyperbole really do a disservice, IMO, to people in your line of work who are trying to find solutions to the real problem. I think people hear stories like that and tend to dismiss them out of hand, because an epidemic of kids eating mixed handfuls of unknown prescription drugs (without a commensurate epidemic of OD deaths from those parties) is fairly difficult to find plausible.

Sure.  But I submit what you are describing is not all that prevalent, compared to the reasonably stories and articles and studies that describe what is happening which IS at parties.  And they aren't handfulls, but even at one at a time, the dangers are very real.

I agree with this too. This is where it originated:

There is this thing that some kids do where they will snag random medications from friends, family, etc., dump them all in a bowl and pop them like they are skittles.  Pill Party.  Also called Pharm Parties, or fish bowling.

When I ate skittles I'd take a small handful and pop them over the course of a minute or so - if I were to hazard a guess, this is where the "handfuls of pills" imagery came from.

Then what Triple Zero said, because I think he hit it on the head. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it's "okay" for kids to experiment with any amount of prescription drugs.

Fictionpuss:
Just about every new user with an opinion on drugs, (which is just about everybody, given that this site hosts the Principia Discordia,) tangles with RWHN over this sooner or later.  Often, the new user makes a strong statement disparaging the work that RWHN does, without understanding what exactly it is that he does in the slightest.  This is one of those "happy fun hidden deathtraps" of PD.com.

It's because there are assumptions that everyone here is going to think the same way when it comes to drugs.  And I will be frank and say that is more than a little annoying.  Especially the reactions I get from some when it becomes apparent that I don't hold the same "conventional" wisdom.  And it is also a little annoying when I am not afforded the same benefit of the doubt, when I speak from my experience, as other posters get in their knowledge base. 

I think this is because you are tending to rely on hyperbole to express your passion on this subject. You say "in my experience, there is no such thing as "relatively better" when it comes to this.  There just isn't." and I immediately think something like "So taking one known pill is not 'relatively better' than ten random pills - wtf?"

Yes either case can kill you right dead before you make it to ER, and it is a serious issue, but with that line of argument you don't have a leg to stand upon. Which is a shame, because you obviously do know what you are talking about.

RWHN:
Speaking as someone with zero drug culture knowledge (I'm so square I have trouble walking through round doors), the idea of kids taking and eating a large handful of assorted, potent prescription medications doesn't seem all that farfetched to me.  Living to do it a second time does.  I think you'd need a lot of "filler" in the bowl to make that a survivable experience.

This discussion has kind of snowballed and I know there isn't anywhere where I said they were "eating large handfulls of pills".  I've described what I have heard about from PROFESSIONALS where kids will bring pills to a party or social situation, put them on a table or in some other manner, and sort of take turns drawing from this community stash.  Sometimes they know what they are taking, sometimes not, in either case it is extremely dangerous especially where alcohol is being mixed.  It's sort of the drug-using equivalent of Russian Roulette.  Markedly more survivable than Russian Roulette, but, the "empty chambers" have more negative impacts on a body. 

That sounds entirely plausible. If you'd written this in the first place I doubt this thread would have spawned.

[Triple Zero]

There is this thing that some kids do where they will snag random medications from friends, family, etc., dump them all in a bowl and pop them like they are skittles.  Pill Party.  Also called Pharm Parties, or fish bowling.

When I ate skittles I'd take a small handful and pop them over the course of a minute or so - if I were to hazard a guess, this is where the "handfuls of pills" imagery came from.

Yeah, that.

It seems to me that most people responding had their doubts on the "handfuls of pills" imagery.

Which you then (mis)took as doubts on the entire problem of Rx abuse among adolescents.

are we clear now?

[AFK]

So this is a semantics, gotcha game.  To me when you "pop" something, it is a one at a time thing.  If I'm popping skittles I'm not swallowing handfuls, I am popping them, one at a time.  I used "skittles" to convey the idea that kids treat the pills like they are something other than pills.  Like they are candy.  If I had meant to give the imagery of kids eating handfuls vs. one-at-a-time, I would've fucking said "handfuls". 

[Triple Zero]

Ok no, I'm like FP, I always down the entire baggie of skittles in one go.

[AFK]

No. The only "safe sex" is abstinence, as there are risks associated with every form of contraception. But the analogy only goes as far as "this is something your child may attempt, despite your wishes - if so, it might be better if they know enough to choose behaviour which is relatively less risky".

No.  Because when it comes to kids using unprescribed medications, that were prescribed to adults, there is no such thing as "relatively less risky".  There just isn't.  And then there is the other problem that you are not considering which is this little thing we in the field call validation.  As soon as you validate their use, in anyway, you've lost them.  If you give them a hint that some level of Rx abuse is "okay", you've lost them.  And even if you say "less harmful", they will still translate that into "okay".  And what do kids do?  They test boundaries.  So if you set up some arbitrary bullshit line of how it is okay to use Rx drugs, they will test and cross that line.  Guaran-fucking-teed!  What you are suggesting is playing with fire. 

Then what Triple Zero said, because I think he hit it on the head. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it's "okay" for kids to experiment with any amount of prescription drugs.

Um, no, actually you said that as long as they know what they are taking, it is less risky.  And when you say something like that to a kid you ARE saying it is okay.  Remember, the human brain takes a long time to fully develop.  It is still developing well into our mid 20's.  This means kids don't have the same decision-making capacity that adults do.  They will not reason in the same manner. 

I think this is because you are tending to rely on hyperbole to express your passion on this subject. You say "in my experience, there is no such thing as "relatively better" when it comes to this.  There just isn't." and I immediately think something like "So taking one known pill is not 'relatively better' than ten random pills - wtf?"

Yes either case can kill you right dead before you make it to ER, and it is a serious issue, but with that line of argument you don't have a leg to stand upon. Which is a shame, because you obviously do know what you are talking about.

Um, so if "either case can kill you right dead", it isn't exactly hyperbole, now is it?  How many years have you spent in the field?  How much research have you done on the subject?  And you think you are qualified to judge the legitimacy of how I convey information? 

[AFK]

Ok no, I'm like FP, I always down the entire baggie of skittles in one go.

Right, and did I say "down pills like a bag of skittles?"

[LMNO]

This argument has now gotten retarded.

The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.

So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.

That is retarded.  RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.





*Full disclosure: I've done this with Valium, Vicodin, Percoset, Ritalin, and Oxy.  On one occasion, we had to hold a mirror up to a guy's face to make sure he was still breathing (was, barely). On another, some guy jumped out the window on a dare, dislocated his shoulder, didn't notice, and left it like that for an hour or so.  His shoulder's now permanently fucked up because of it.  When I was young and stupid, I was really fucking stupid.

[AFK]

Good advice.  Taken. 

[Captain Utopia]

This argument has now gotten retarded.

The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.

So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.

That is retarded.  RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.

Uh, no.

This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.

RWHN seems to agree to some extent, but is reluctant to actually state it, presumably in case some kid reads through this whole discussion and decides that they should suddenly start raiding some medicine cabinets. I conclude this only because when pressed on the risk issue above, RWHN started putting it in the context of what message should he be telling kids in schools.

There is no "pro-drugs crowd" who have argued at any point that kids abusing Rx is anything other than incredibly stupid. But nice straw-man. As such there is no "saving face" - pretty much everyone has been trying to find areas of agreement with RWHN and figure out where the disagreements stem from, which has been a one-sided effort it seems. It's either "submit to my authority, or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."

[LMNO]

Shut up.

[Captain Utopia]

Shut up.

no u

[Triple Zero]

Ok no, I'm like FP, I always down the entire baggie of skittles in one go.

Right, and did I say "down pills like a bag of skittles?"

No, but I (and I think a bunch of others) misinterpreted it as such.

I have always thought Rx abuse is stupid, which is why I didnt participate much in the discussion except to try to clear the misinterpretation.

[AFK]

Aw fuckit I'll give in to impulse.

This argument has now gotten retarded.

The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.

So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.

That is retarded.  RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.

Uh, no.

This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.

They both pose the risk of overdose and death. There's a reason Rx drugs are Rx drugs and not OTC.  It's to protect people who should not be taking them, especially children. 

RWHN seems to agree to some extent, but is reluctant to actually state it, presumably in case some kid reads through this whole discussion and decides that they should suddenly start raiding some medicine cabinets. I conclude this only because when pressed on the risk issue above, RWHN started putting it in the context of what message should he be telling kids in schools.

I'm reluctant to state it, how you state it, because you are completely wrong. 

There is no "pro-drugs crowd" who have argued at any point that kids abusing Rx is anything other than incredibly stupid. But nice straw-man. As such there is no "saving face" - pretty much everyone has been trying to find areas of agreement with RWHN and figure out where the disagreements stem from, which has been a one-sided effort it seems. It's either "submit to my authority, or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."

The disagreement stems from games of semantics.  And that you don't know what your are talking about has nothing to do with my authority or knowledge on the subject.  It has to do with you really not knowing what the fuck you are talking about. 

[Captain Utopia]

Aw fuckit I'll give in to impulse.

This argument has now gotten retarded.

The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.

So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.

That is retarded.  RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.

Uh, no.

This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.

They both pose the risk of overdose and death. There's a reason Rx drugs are Rx drugs and not OTC.  It's to protect people who should not be taking them, especially children. 

The only point is that they do not pose an equal risk of overdose and death.

The disagreement stems from games of semantics.  And that you don't know what your are talking about has nothing to do with my authority or knowledge on the subject.  It has to do with you really not knowing what the fuck you are talking about. 

Your sloppy use of language "pop them like they are skittles", which most people who responded seemed to take one particular way, is now a group-conspiratorial game of semantics?

What is so hard to understand about the straightforward explanation of how I came to misunderstand your skittles reference, and why must you assume it is anything more than that? I'm happy to let this drop, but I won't while you're ascribing a motive to it which simply isn't there.