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Pharm parties-Rx abuse

Started by AFK, October 08, 2009, 06:10:34 PM

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Captain Utopia

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.

So, you think I'm going to stand up in front of a bunch of kids and say, "Well, if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, at least know what you're taking." ??  Really?
1) You're not talking in front of a bunch of kids right now
2) If you give kids inferior advice, to that which you would give adults, then aren't they just going to bypass you as a source of information and go straight to the internet anyway?

AFK

Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 09:16:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.

So, you think I'm going to stand up in front of a bunch of kids and say, "Well, if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, at least know what you're taking." ??  Really?
1) You're not talking in front of a bunch of kids right now
2) If you give kids inferior advice, to that which you would give adults, then aren't they just going to bypass you as a source of information and go straight to the internet anyway?

You didn't answer the question.  If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do?  Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking?  Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment.  I would additionally propose that you clearly need to do more research on the Rx abuse phenomenon because I don't think you realize how dangerous it is for someone to be taking, even one, unprescribed medication.  Nevermind the fact that often times these are also being mixed with alcohol and other drugs as LMNO described.  Someone can take a swig of alcohol to experiment and be okay.  Someone can take a drag off a joint and be okay.  But if a kid pops a Celebrex or a VIOXX, the night could end up being very short. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs?  Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway?  Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them.  Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids. 

There is a huge difference, actually. They may not be familiar with what they're taking, but they know the name of it, and the dosage. I've never been anywhere drugs were being ingested, even as a kid, where the question "how much do I take?" wasn't asked. Another typical question is "can I take x with y?" Speaking as an (occasional) drug user, eating a random handful of pills out of a bowl is stupid and terrifying, whereas trading a couple Xanax for an Oxycontin is, well, if not reasonable, completely plausible.

In my opinion hyperbole and sensationalism, which is what "eating random handfuls of pills like candy" sounds like, makes light of the real problem, which is kids stealing pills and swapping them at parties.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mangrove

My experience thus far with 'young people & drugs' has been that (around these parts) they're using Heroin more often than anything else because it's cheaper and very easy to find in CT. The one prescription med that gets a lot of use is Suboxone.

It would appear that they're using it to ameliorate the affects of withdrawal sickness or to generally just use it as a 'breather' between buying bundles of heroin. It's like: 'I'm going to just get a couple of subs today, but I'll blow a few bags on the weekend'.

Suboxone is being bought off the street but is more likely to come via a fellow addict who has a legal script from a rehab program and is selling off spare pills to make some extra $$s on the side.

As a side point (and further to LMNO's 1992 experience*) I've known plenty of drug users who took shit they had not investigated simply because it was 'there'.

And as for kids who become 'pharmacists' my experience has been that their knowledge is partly accurate in some areas but woefully inadequate in others. It's like they know a few 'factoids' embedded within a matrix of self-justifying drug culture nonsense. Eg:

1: Meth? I'd never take it....too many chemicals and shit in it. (yes, because buying bags of heroin is an entirely safe activity).

2: Spends most of his time high but won't 'drink & drive' because, you know, it's dangerous.

3: Can tell you all sorts of interesting things about THC but has little understanding of basic physiological processes.

Maybe there are some young 'experts' out there, but much of what I've encountered has been in the  :x and  :facepalm: category.


* Great name for a band
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

AFK

I'm not sure anyone who does legitimate work in the field is in the business of making light of this issue.  News organizations will exaggerate stories and use crass phrases like "eating handfulls of pills", but anyone doing any kind of evidence-based work or research is generally more measured in their language.  Yeah, in that other thread I mentioned "popping them like skittles", which was meant to mean, one at a time, but this is on a message board, I certainly don't use that kind of language in a professional setting. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

BabylonHoruv

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 08:15:24 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:08:31 PM
And while it's neither desirable or responsible for kids to be taking recreational drugs, it is relatively more responsible for kids to be swapping/trading known drugs than putting them into a bowl and grabbing random handfuls.

You're splitting hairs here.  Whether they are putting them in a bowl or a small pile on a table, social Rx abuse is social Rx abuse.  It's the same idea.  Put some Rx drugs together and treat it like a buffet.  And even when they "know" what they are taking, do you really think they have any idea of what the drug is going to do to them?  Sure, they know it's a Nexium pill, but do they really know what's going to happen when they take it?  No.  Of course not.  There is no such thing as "relatively more responsible" in either scenario.  

The RX abusers that I have known read all the information that comes with the drugs.  There's usually quite a bit of it, and it tells you, roughly, what is going to happen if you take more than the reccomended dosage.

That's the ones who aren't just taking opiates or barbituates, those are in common enough usage that the effects are pretty well known already.

That is relatively more responsible, knowing what you put into your body.  That's a huge difference from grabbing a handful of pills out of a bowl.
You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

Merely by being alive, you make everyone just a little more miserable

-Dok Howl

Captain Utopia

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 09:16:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.

So, you think I'm going to stand up in front of a bunch of kids and say, "Well, if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, at least know what you're taking." ??  Really?
1) You're not talking in front of a bunch of kids right now
2) If you give kids inferior advice, to that which you would give adults, then aren't they just going to bypass you as a source of information and go straight to the internet anyway?

You didn't answer the question.  If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do?  Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking?  Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment. 
Or a variation thereof, yes. For similar reasons as to why I don't think abstinence-only sex-education is effective, and counter-productive when kids don't end up knowing anything about contraception.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
I would additionally propose that you clearly need to do more research on the Rx abuse phenomenon because I don't think you realize how dangerous it is for someone to be taking, even one, unprescribed medication.  Nevermind the fact that often times these are also being mixed with alcohol and other drugs as LMNO described.  Someone can take a swig of alcohol to experiment and be okay.  Someone can take a drag off a joint and be okay.  But if a kid pops a Celebrex or a VIOXX, the night could end up being very short. 
For sure. Look, I am aware of the danger, just from my own experiences I'm not convinced that "just say no"/zero tolerance is the best approach.

Golden Applesauce

Fictionpuss:
Just about every new user with an opinion on drugs, (which is just about everybody, given that this site hosts the Principia Discordia,) tangles with RWHN over this sooner or later.  Often, the new user makes a strong statement disparaging the work that RWHN does, without understanding what exactly it is that he does in the slightest.  This is one of those "happy fun hidden deathtraps" of PD.com.

RWHN:
Speaking as someone with zero drug culture knowledge (I'm so square I have trouble walking through round doors), the idea of kids taking and eating a large handful of assorted, potent prescription medications doesn't seem all that farfetched to me.  Living to do it a second time does.  I think you'd need a lot of "filler" in the bowl to make that a survivable experience.
Q: How regularly do you hire 8th graders?
A: We have hired a number of FORMER 8th graders.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:40:46 PM
I'm not sure anyone who does legitimate work in the field is in the business of making light of this issue.  News organizations will exaggerate stories and use crass phrases like "eating handfulls of pills", but anyone doing any kind of evidence-based work or research is generally more measured in their language.  Yeah, in that other thread I mentioned "popping them like skittles", which was meant to mean, one at a time, but this is on a message board, I certainly don't use that kind of language in a professional setting. 

I am talking about the sensationalistic articles that use inflammatory verbiage like that, and wording that states that they put them in a bowl and eat random handfuls, while drinking alcohol. That's so dangerous it's more or less a guarantee of at least one serious overdose per party, and articles that spread that kind of incredible hyperbole really do a disservice, IMO, to people in your line of work who are trying to find solutions to the real problem. I think people hear stories like that and tend to dismiss them out of hand, because an epidemic of kids eating mixed handfuls of unknown prescription drugs (without a commensurate epidemic of OD deaths from those parties) is fairly difficult to find plausible.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Chairman Risus

Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2009, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs?  Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway?  Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them.  Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids. 

There is a huge difference, actually. They may not be familiar with what they're taking, but they know the name of it, and the dosage. I've never been anywhere drugs were being ingested, even as a kid, where the question "how much do I take?" wasn't asked. Another typical question is "can I take x with y?" Speaking as an (occasional) drug user, eating a random handful of pills out of a bowl is stupid and terrifying, whereas trading a couple Xanax for an Oxycontin is, well, if not reasonable, completely plausible.

In my opinion hyperbole and sensationalism, which is what "eating random handfuls of pills like candy" sounds like, makes light of the real problem, which is kids stealing pills and swapping them at parties.


This.

Lies

#55
www.erowid.org
www.wikipedia.com

All the drug education kids need.
- So the New World Order does not actually exist?
- Oh it exists, and how!
Ask the slaves whose labour built the White House;
Ask the slaves of today tied down to sweatshops and brothels to escape hunger;
Ask most women, second class citizens, in a pervasive rape culture;
Ask the non-human creatures who inhabit the planet:
whales, bears, frogs, tuna, bees, slaughtered farm animals;
Ask the natives of the Americas and Australia on whose land
you live today, on whose graves your factories, farms and neighbourhoods stand;
ask any of them this, ask them if the New World Order is true;
they'll tell you plainly: the New World Order... is you!

Triple Zero

maybe I can shed some light ..

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs?  Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway?  Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them.  Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids. 

It's the "they put it in a bowl first" bit that just seems very unlikely to me. You ever noticed that where at (young) adult aged parties the hosts tend to neatly place chips, nuts in bowls and snacks onto plates etc, whereas teenagers parties simply pass some bags of chips around?

That's not to say Rx abuse is not a problem, it's just that, well you can already see it from the average reactions ITT, if the initial example sounds a bit dubious or far-fetched, people will focus on whether that particular example is true or not, instead of the real problem, which is that kids are taking Rx drugs!

It's kind of like describing the alcoholism problem by "and they pour PURE RUM in a glass filled with brown sugar, bruised mint leaves, pressed lime parts and crushed ice and a cherry on top!! and they drink it with a STRAW to prevent the mint leaves entering their mouths!!"

Which is not to say it doesn't happen, nor that alcoholism is not a problem, just that giving such a specific example gives people an excuse to dismiss it with "Pff that sounds like nonsense, everybody knows that mojito's don't have a cherry on top."

Which of course is stupid, because alcoholism is the problem, and not whether mojitos have a cherry on top or not, but that's why the devil's in the details. With mass media lying and exaggerating about so much (i mean in general, not drugs ed). there has appeared a particular strain of skeptics (of which PD.com probably contains a disproportionally large amount), especially among the younger generation. Very quick to judge, if they can even poke the tiniest hole in whatever you have to say, they will dismiss you instantly.
Why? Partly because they are information junkies and consume/are bombared with so much info every day that lightning-quick evaluation/judgement is a necessary survival skill. And partly because they have simply been had too many times and operate on a zero-tolerance bullshit policy.
And if you want to reach that group, you gotta be very very careful and accurate with what you do and what you don't tell them, because you only got a few milliseconds, you blink and zap they're gone.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

AFK

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on October 08, 2009, 09:42:14 PM
The RX abusers that I have known read all the information that comes with the drugs.  There's usually quite a bit of it, and it tells you, roughly, what is going to happen if you take more than the reccomended dosage.

That's the ones who aren't just taking opiates or barbituates, those are in common enough usage that the effects are pretty well known already.

That is relatively more responsible, knowing what you put into your body.  That's a huge difference from grabbing a handful of pills out of a bowl.

Sorry, that's bullshit.  And let's remember, the focus of this discussion is on adolescents, not adults.  Some kids may read labels and have some general "knowledge" about what they think will happen.  But let's also remember, most of these Rx drugs are being taken from adults, which means they were prescribed to adults, with adult ailments, which means the prescriptions are based on ADULT body chemistry. 

It is NOT going to do the same thing to a healthy 15 year old kid that it will do to a 40 year old with a specified condition.  If a kid pops the wrong pill, it is very likely that they could end up in the ER that night.  And that DOES happen.  Throw alcohol into the mix....

No, in my experience, there is no such thing as "relatively better" when it comes to this.  There just isn't. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
You didn't answer the question.  If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do?  Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking?  Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment. 
Or a variation thereof, yes. For similar reasons as to why I don't think abstinence-only sex-education is effective, and counter-productive when kids don't end up knowing anything about contraception.

That is a stupid analogy.  Safe sex is, well, safe.  There is no such thing as safe Rx misuse, for the reasons I stated in my response to Babylon.  One pill could put you in the hospital, depending on what it is.  They are prescribed to adults in adult dosages for adult ailments.  And again, when this use happens in a social setting, aka a party, you can be damned sure alcohol is in the mix.  What you are suggesting WILL result in death.  No question about it. 

QuoteFor sure. Look, I am aware of the danger, just from my own experiences I'm not convinced that "just say no"/zero tolerance is the best approach.

No, indeed you are not aware of the real danger.  And what I do is not as menial as "just say no".  It's about educating, giving science-based facts on substance abuse.  It is all researched.  And from what I know, and what I've read, and what I've heard, it simply would be irresponsible to even hint to an adolescent that it would be okay to abuse Rx drugs, just so long as they know the name of the pill they are swallowing.  Nevermind the facts but can you imagine the lawsuits I would be exposing my agency too?  I suggest that YOU need to do some more research yourself.  You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

Quote from: GA on October 08, 2009, 10:44:42 PM
Fictionpuss:
Just about every new user with an opinion on drugs, (which is just about everybody, given that this site hosts the Principia Discordia,) tangles with RWHN over this sooner or later.  Often, the new user makes a strong statement disparaging the work that RWHN does, without understanding what exactly it is that he does in the slightest.  This is one of those "happy fun hidden deathtraps" of PD.com.

It's because there are assumptions that everyone here is going to think the same way when it comes to drugs.  And I will be frank and say that is more than a little annoying.  Especially the reactions I get from some when it becomes apparent that I don't hold the same "conventional" wisdom.  And it is also a little annoying when I am not afforded the same benefit of the doubt, when I speak from my experience, as other posters get in their knowledge base. 

QuoteRWHN:
Speaking as someone with zero drug culture knowledge (I'm so square I have trouble walking through round doors), the idea of kids taking and eating a large handful of assorted, potent prescription medications doesn't seem all that farfetched to me.  Living to do it a second time does.  I think you'd need a lot of "filler" in the bowl to make that a survivable experience.

This discussion has kind of snowballed and I know there isn't anywhere where I said they were "eating large handfulls of pills".  I've described what I have heard about from PROFESSIONALS where kids will bring pills to a party or social situation, put them on a table or in some other manner, and sort of take turns drawing from this community stash.  Sometimes they know what they are taking, sometimes not, in either case it is extremely dangerous especially where alcohol is being mixed.  It's sort of the drug-using equivalent of Russian Roulette.  Markedly more survivable than Russian Roulette, but, the "empty chambers" have more negative impacts on a body. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.