Mathematical notations and languages were certainly invented by humans. **But the relationships they describe were not.**

Yeah, they were. Lo5 writ large.

You sure? How so?

I mean, I can imagine this to be the case, from the point of view that all is Chaos and we separate it into Order and Disorder with our, um, "reality tunnels". You know what I mean. So yeah, the relationships that mathematics describes for us could very well be a result of this, and therefore the Lo5.

However, how can we know for sure? And IMO, there is something about mathematics that reeks as very fundamental to reality, in a way. And really, I wouldn't dare to say what comes first, the Lo5 Chaos=Order+Disorder shtick or Mathematics.

Math is a language.

Therefore, it was invented.

You said this before, I still don't understand. You mean, Math is

*just* a language, and nothing more, right?

Cause then I'm going to need your definition of "language". I have a few, but they won't entirely fit around mathematics.

..

Though thinking some more, I kind of see it, the bit about language describing reality. To ask whether mathematical proofs are invented or discovered, is like asking the same question about poems, or jokes, or puns, right?

I'm still not entirely convinced, because, especially puns, they're not entirely invented, but also discovered. It goes either way, in a creative process* , you know that there are some places you can look that are more likely to contain a good idea, so are the ideas invented or discovered?

It's iffy, and if they are discovered, it means -- blablablabla does it matter anyway.

*involving language, that is. From some musicians on this board (LMNO, RWHN) I get the idea they go in a much more freeflow intuitive manner. Maybe that's something different. Maybe not, I don't have enough experience with making music.

However, an interesting question is, regardless of whether mathematics is something really fundamental in our reality or whether it's just us describing how we observe our reality to work, see they say, "mathematics is the language of nature" or "is the universal language" or something.

So the idea is, if we were to meet a bunch of aliens or their artifacts or such, we would be able to exchange some meaning, or at least recognize mathematical things, their idea of math would be the same as ours.

But if math isn't discovered, but invented, then would that still be so?