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the math poll

Started by rong, October 10, 2009, 12:34:48 AM

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pick one, please

math was invented
14 (43.8%)
math was discovered
4 (12.5%)
it's a little bit of both
8 (25%)
don't know
2 (6.3%)
don't care
4 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 32

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LMNO

#90
October 13, 2009, 03:35:57 AM
If they come up with the concept of an Ideal circle, then eventually they will come up with something resembling 22/7.

The Good Reverend Roger

#91
October 13, 2009, 03:46:04 AM
Quote from: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 03:35:57 AM
If they come up with the concept of an Ideal circle, then eventually they will come up with something resembling 22/7.

And they'll probably have stabbed THEIR guy that figured it out, too.

Nobody likes a smartass.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Halfbaked1

#92
October 13, 2009, 03:58:01 AM
Oddly, this discussion was going on in Champions Online today.  The existence of math as a phenomenon is something I accept as having been a truth prior to our ability to grasp it.  Once we were able to grasp it we invented the language to quantify and express our grasp of the concept.  The language changes from time to time to better equate what we have gleaned from our explorations of the basic truths underlying what we first saw when we began the undertaking of developing the language of mathematics.

My apologies if this was said more eloquently earlier, I just wanted to chime in.

The Good Reverend Roger

#93
October 13, 2009, 04:55:29 AM
Quote from: Halfbaked1 on October 13, 2009, 03:58:01 AM
Oddly, this discussion was going on in Champions Online today.  The existence of math as a phenomenon is something I accept as having been a truth prior to our ability to grasp it. 

Yeah, okay.  How much mass does it have?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Halfbaked1

#94
October 13, 2009, 07:52:48 AM
That depends on what IT is I should think.

rong

#95
October 13, 2009, 02:12:50 PM Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 02:15:02 PM by rong
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 13, 2009, 04:55:29 AM
Quote from: Halfbaked1 on October 13, 2009, 03:58:01 AM
Oddly, this discussion was going on in Champions Online today.  The existence of math as a phenomenon is something I accept as having been a truth prior to our ability to grasp it.

Yeah, okay.  How much mass does it have?

how much mass does gravity have?
(sorry, couldn't help it)

in all seriousness, i appreciate all the thought and responses.  i'm getting the feeling that, for the most part, the consensus is that it's a little bit of both. (even though the poll results show the strongest belief to be that it was invented).

i think it's interesting how many times the universe and reality keep coming up in this discussion.  i think this is a distraction.

i'm glad you made the map/territory argument, roger - however, i don't think it had the desired effect.  (i hate to derail this off the topic of math but . . .) is the map invented or discovered?  i would argue that preliminary maps are invented, but as the territory is used to perfect the map, eventually one should be able to have the perfect map (an exact copy of the territory).  since the territory is not invented (i.e. it was there before you bumbled along making maps) then the ONE TRUE MAP of the territory could not have been invented - as it is merely a copy of the territory - and was therefore discovered.

- - - - pauses to look at the newly fallen snow - - - -

i think now, the question as to whether math was invented or discovered is akin to asking whether there is an underlying territory that it describes.  as long as "our universe" is the believed underlying territory, it seems the consensus is that math is invented.  we've been trying for X years (yes that was sort of a bad joke) to make the ONE TRUE MAP of the universe and math, so far, can't do it.

however, i think my real question is: Is there a different underlying territory to math? or is it just a bunch of symbols?  it certainly seems like there's something at the bottom of it all, making it work (at least to me, and perhaps a few others).  but what is it?  Logic? If so, is Logic another type of math? was it invented or discovered?  





"a real smart feller, he felt smart"

LMNO

#96
October 13, 2009, 02:29:15 PM
Hold on.  I think we're conflating math and science again.

Math is a series of game rules.  Once those rules are "invented" and established, different relationships can be "discovered".

The game rules do not have to adhere to anything we find inside this universe.

The Good Reverend Roger

#97
October 13, 2009, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: rong on October 13, 2009, 02:12:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 13, 2009, 04:55:29 AM
Quote from: Halfbaked1 on October 13, 2009, 03:58:01 AM
Oddly, this discussion was going on in Champions Online today.  The existence of math as a phenomenon is something I accept as having been a truth prior to our ability to grasp it.

Yeah, okay.  How much mass does it have?

You can measure gravity's effect.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#98
October 13, 2009, 02:31:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 02:29:15 PM
Hold on.  I think we're conflating math and science again.

Math is a series of game rules.  Once those rules are "invented" and established, different relationships can be "discovered".

The game rules do not have to adhere to anything we find inside this universe.

No, I retract my postion.  Math was discovered.  It always existed.  So did writing, civics, and home ec.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#99
October 13, 2009, 02:33:10 PM
Quote from: Halfbaked1 on October 13, 2009, 07:52:48 AM
That depends on what IT is I should think.

I think we just said what it is, you jabbering fucking lackwit.  I think it's, you know, RIGHT IN THE FUCKING POST TITLE.

You.

FUCKING.

Moron.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#100
October 13, 2009, 02:36:35 PM
Now that we've invented Roger Prime, your outbursts aren't just pleasing to the eye, they're educational, too.


LMNO
-Learning more every day. 

The Good Reverend Roger

#101
October 13, 2009, 02:42:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 02:36:35 PM
Now that we've invented Roger Prime, your outbursts aren't just pleasing to the eye, they're educational, too.


LMNO
-Learning more every day.  

I try to help people.   :)
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Requia ☣

#102
October 13, 2009, 05:49:43 PM
Quote from: GA on October 12, 2009, 06:55:25 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on October 12, 2009, 08:47:52 AM
QuotePi is one-half the period of the sine and cosine functions, for starters.

The period of a sine or cosine function is based on the percentage of a circle traveled.  pi related because pi is 1/4th of the circumference of a circle of radius one *by definition*.  (even then its kindof artificial, I can use 90 degrees instead of pi just as easily)

You can get pi out of the other equation you described because thats also related to a circle.

Sine and cosine don't have to be defined as relating to a circle at all (and in rigorous math usually isn't) - you can define them by their Taylor series, for instance, or a number of other things.

You can interpret the other equation as related to a circle, or not.  That's the Lo5 bit - whether you see it as connected to a hemicircle, or just an arbitrary function of x.  Regardless, it shows that there is something exactly equal to pi without any notion of geometry being presupposed.

:?

Sin and Cos are functions of angles, angles are fractions of circles.

And no, it doesn't show that something is equal to pi without having geometry exist.  Because the operation in question, the integral from -1 to 1, measures the area of the function.  that equation is basically 'what is the area of (1/half a circle).
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

Cramulus

#103
October 13, 2009, 07:56:44 PM
ran across this interesting one yesterday

LMNO

#104
October 13, 2009, 08:00:33 PM Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 08:04:48 PM by LMNO
Seven, of course.  But I'm not sure how that applies.


Edit: That was a bit snarky.  A nice subtle I3! reference, as well.


It does bring up the interesting idea of what a numbering system would look like for a race of hyperintelligent amoebas, though.
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