LEAVE OBAMA ALONE!!!

[Cain]

This was too funny to not link to:

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2009/10/13/1939/2773

Yesterday was probably the most embarrassing day yet for the progressive blogosphere during the short reign of the Obama administration. So, now is probably a good time to just let loose and register my disgust with the movement I've been a part of for the last five years.

If you supported Obama during the primaries, you know who you are and this does not necessarily apply to you. For the rest of you, you spent the primaries either shilling for Clinton and telling us our guy was all talk and no show, or you spent them bitching that David Plouffe wouldn't respond to and obey your emailed wisdom. As soon as he won the presidency, you started bitching about his appointments. As soon as he became president, you started bitching about his messaging, his framing, his agenda, and his lack of deference to your opinion. I want to know where the point was in this process when Obama was supposed to conclude that you were his allies and that you were responsible for his victory. When was he supposed to conclude that he owed you something, or that you had any respect for him, or that you credited his good intentions, or that you understood the myriad responsibilities of the job might mean that your pet issues might have to wait six months, a year, or two years to get to the top of his agenda.

You call him a warmonger, but he gets the Nobel Peace Prize. He ends torture and allows his Attorney General to investigate it, and you call him a torturer. He tries to enact health care reform with a robust public option and you accuse him of seeking every opportunity to sell-out to the insurance industry. He bails out the cratering financial services industry and prevents a second Great Depression, and you accuse him of selling his soul to corporate CEO's. I'm not saying that all of these criticisms lack validity. I'm not saying that people shouldn't advocate for the things they care about passionately. I just want to know where you get the fucking idea that an anonymous White House staffer who gets asked about all this criticism would feel obligated to show you deference and respect.

What's he supposed to say? That all the criticism is right on the mark?

The truth of the matter is, right or wrong, the progressive blogosphere has been a more severe and on point critic of the Obama administration than any teabagger. And, in many ways, that is to the community's credit. We don't embrace the cheerleader's role and that gives us more credibility. When the president screws up, we're willing to call him on it. But, Jesus Christ, do you expect the administration to lie down and say, 'Thank you, sir, may I have another'?

If you berate them for not closing Guantanamo fast enough, not ending Don't Ask, Don't Tell fast enough, not evacuating Iraq fast enough, not passing a health care bill fast enough, and so on...do you not expect one of their number to at some point push back and point out that making these kind of changes takes time and is a bit difficult?

And, where the hell do you get off taking it personally? Aren't you the ones accusing them of being whores to the insurance industry and Wall Street and the military-industrial complex? Do you think they are going to find that criticism generous and well-intended?

Criticism is fine. But the sense of entitlement involved here is staggering. Ooh, some big, bad White House adviser defended the administration against one more heated attack. My feelings are hurt. Guess what? You should get over it.

I think the White House is willing to listen to criticism from their allies. From you? Not so much.

[MornTheOrator]

I think my sister once said 'Obama should not get the Nobel Prize, Alfed Nobel specifically said that the Nobel Prize may never be awared for a chiefly theoretical feat but should tangibly serve humanity.', I kind of concur, a Nobel Prize in theoretical peace it is.

Obama was probably over-hyped and a lot of things people expected him to do—including myself—never really came to fruition, he's a lot better than McCain who if he sees women's (or men's?) panties for the first time gets a heart attack leaving Dan Quayle and a half in charge. I guess the thing about these positions is that people that even start to run for it are overconfident of their own abilities.

What I'd love to see is Obama just turning Bush over to The Hague to be tried for war crimes, a thing he's apparently obligated to do but of course isn't going to and I don't see the UN invading the US for that.

[Kai]

He'd technically have to turn himself over as well then.

[MornTheOrator]

The thing about being da prez of da us of a is that few people care if you're inconsistent, even fewer people are going to start a war to extradite you, and you can always call racism assuming you're the first half black man for the job.

Edit: but come on, this 'war crime' shit is just an excuse for the victors to convict the losing side, I guess all parties commit them because you can't win if you don't because the other party is going to commit them. 'For during war the law shall silence' eh? If America some how lost their power after Vietnam or even lost WOII they'd be tried and convicted for war crimes. If Germany won then it wasn't about holocausts in the history books but rather about atomic bombs and how the US just happened to put all people of German, Italian and Japanese descent into concentration camps because their loyalty was in dispute, on paper they were to be treated as guests, de facto their angry racist overseers didn't really care. Not to mention Vietnam.

[Sir Squid Diddimus]

wut

[Halfbaked1]

wut

What the Squid said...

but I never expected President Obama to accomplish anything wonderful in his first half year, and I am always amazed at how everyone out there seems to think that he should have brought about world peace, cured cancer and helped someones dog deliver puppies.  I think he could have closed Gitmo if he had actually taken time to create a plan which I simply do not think he did.

He really should have turned down the Nobel.  i think he would have looked HUGE to people if he had done so with one of his speeches.

[Rumckle]

wut

What the Squid said...

but I never expected President Obama to accomplish anything wonderful in his first half year, and I am always amazed at how everyone out there seems to think that he should have brought about world peace, cured cancer and helped someones dog deliver puppies.  I think he could have closed Gitmo if he had actually taken time to create a plan which I simply do not think he did.

THIS

He really should have turned down the Nobel.  i think he would have looked HUGE to people if he had done so with one of his speeches.

Although, I think if he turned down the Nobel it would have displayed more arrogance in the matter. He is better off accepting it, in my opinion, even if it makes it harder for him in the short term.

[MornTheOrator]

wut

What the Squid said...

but I never expected President Obama to accomplish anything wonderful in his first half year, and I am always amazed at how everyone out there seems to think that he should have brought about world peace, cured cancer and helped someones dog deliver puppies.  I think he could have closed Gitmo if he had actually taken time to create a plan which I simply do not think he did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVFdAJRVm94 ?

I can say I overrated him slightly, though not as much as most people. I at least didn't expect him to make the India goof and I also thought that Iran could be willing to talk to a new face that signalled that America—perhaps—had changed.

I personally like the existence of states such as NK and Iran that ensure there are checks and balances and not leading to one mindset becoming globally dominant.

He really should have turned down the Nobel.  i think he would have looked HUGE to people if he had done so with one of his speeches.

Although, I think if he turned down the Nobel it would have displayed more arrogance in the matter. He is better off accepting it, in my opinion, even if it makes it harder for him in the short term.

A lot of people have turned down Nobel Prizes though, the Prize is a big farce namely and usually the committee doesn't even understand the work they are awarding. I think its up to how he turned it down. If he called it a farce then he's arrogant if he says 'I am thee not worthy, O Lord ̄which palest me in thy splendour.' then it should send a wave of 'he's so cool and modest' upon the world.

[Cain]

NK and Iran as checks and balances?  The Soviet Union was a check and balance.  In 19th century Europe, the British Empire was a check and balance.  Iran may one day become a regional hegemon, but will likely not compete with Turkey or Israel in our lifetimes and North Korea would be much scarier if a) their missiles didn't fall apart, and b) they weren't one cancelled Chinese shipment away from total collapse.

Russia is the only state recently to pursue something like a balancing strategy against US unilateral tendencies (Putin's various gestures to the EU from 2000-2005), and it failed utterly because Russia just isn't that scary unless you are a Russian journalist, Chechen insurgent or the President of Georgia.  Oh, and some people say China is allegedly pursuing a policy of multipolarity to undermine US global hegemony, but personally I find that argument to be weak and unpersuasive, given how integrated with the US economy they are.

If anything, the only people really undermining US global power right now are the bankers and neo-imperalists, and that's through accident and stupidity respectively.

[Cain]

Anyway, I had hoped Obama would

a) shut down GitMo
b) stop torture as a legitmate tool of investigation
c) make the wingnuts crazy
d) if eventually succumbing to imperialist tendencies, be at least be smart about it

So far he's winning on c) but little else.  Then again, c) is pretty funny, and provides almost limitless free entertainment...

[MornTheOrator]

NK and Iran as checks and balances?  The Soviet Union was a check and balance.  In 19th century Europe, the British Empire was a check and balance.  Iran may one day become a regional hegemon, but will likely not compete with Turkey or Israel in our lifetimes and North Korea would be much scarier if a) their missiles didn't fall apart, and b) they weren't one cancelled Chinese shipment away from total collapse.

Don't believe western propaganda that much, they have propaganda, and so have we. The US is not as strong as they like us to believe, their œconomy certainly isn't. NK is also not on the verge of collapse and Kim is actually quite a capable leader that's pretty realistic and most of all is a master of obfuscation, all his 'family portraits' have completely different people on it and all people know he's trying to confuse but it's working, he gives each UN delegate a completely different impression of him, from self-hating to obsessed with grandeur to complete psychopathy to calculating realism, they all come back and say different things about the man. No one knows what he is, and where he is, estimates on NK's army size go from the fourth largest standing army to just under the US. (US is actually 7th or 8th), also: dumpert.nl/mediabase/605701/0e517954/lang_leve_de_grote_leider_.html

We're talking about highly disciplined men each and every one ready to give their lifes for the great leader. I wouldn't be surprised if he purposely let that test fail by damaging some critical part of it but in reality testing some other things and already had the critical part operational, estimates on how soon he'll have nukes are like a 'file transfer time remaining'-bar in Windows. NK is out to confuse the world, the world knows it, but there's nothing they can do. They're all in the dark about Kim and his state but they know it's a thing to take seriously.

As for Iran, also don't believe western propaganda here, it 's not some borderline mediæval desert state, and Iran has the advantage of being pro-scientific research, a thing the Bush administration was against in a lot of cases. Iran supports stem cell research and all those things.

http://images.google.com/images?q=Tehran

That's Tehran, it's not some barbarian state Iran also lies on one of the fossil fuel storages on earth. If I recall correctly only Russia has more oil and gas than Iran, America is dependent on Iran for its energy consumption and Iran unlike about every western country has a positive and not a negative state reserve.

Russia is the only state recently to pursue something like a balancing strategy against US unilateral tendencies (Putin's various gestures to the EU from 2000-2005), and it failed utterly because Russia just isn't that scary unless you are a Russian journalist, Chechen insurgent or the President of Georgia.  Oh, and some people say China is allegedly pursuing a policy of multipolarity to undermine US global hegemony, but personally I find that argument to be weak and unpersuasive, given how integrated with the US economy they are.

Ehhh, let's see, the US just went into a financial crisis partly due to a war Russia and China condemned and both are œconomically growing.

You realize the whole point of wanting to invade all those middle-eastern nations is because the US is dependent on them for fossil fuels and they really enjoy keeping the price high and all those things. The US really can't just do what it wants, with US mentality that'd significantly change the world. The US œconomy to function is dependent on both China and the Middle East, both of which they have a mild cold war with. Both of which are less dependent on the US than the reverse.

If anything, the only people really undermining US global power right now are the bankers and neo-imperalists, and that's through accident and stupidity respectively.

They help amazingly too, and the fact that the free market in the US is too free. It's kind of an irony, there are tonnes of things you can't do in that country because Uncle Sam knows what's best for you and you don't, marijuana, alcohol before 21, reading comic books that contain objectional content from Japan, but oh god does Uncle Sam herald, laud and vaunt the system wherein corporations take advantage of the ignorance of the consumer that likes to buy things it either doesn't need or if they research find better products that do the same and more for less of a price. Not to mention attracting people who think so little in the long term that they just go buy things they don't need with loans.

By the way, did you get that pm back I sent at your pm? I'm not sure it actually got sent namely.

[Sir Squid Diddimus]

wow. that was like listening to a creationist argue science.

why would Cain believe any western propaganda?
what would make you think he would?
just curious.

[MornTheOrator]

wow. that was like listening to a creationist argue science.

why would Cain believe any western propaganda?
what would make you think he would?
just curious.

Because Cain's not superhuman I assume?

The very fact that you ask this is a strong indication you do too and are ignorant of it. I do too, but I'm not ignorant about it, propaganda shapes our lives and colours our very being. There's a reason every single person thinks in terms like 'enemy' and 'ally' and thinks that the values of their own culture are the best.

There is no conceivable way except being superhuman to escape its influence, it's every where, all cultures make their citizens believe they have nice things like freedom of expression, diversity, proper morals, allies have them less, enemies lack them altogether. In reality no culture has them and they all just ascribe it to self and believe their own propaganda probably.

That a lot of people in the west seem to think that North Koreans live in poverty and the nation is on the verge of collapse is just the tip of the iceberg. There are countless more things, Turks, Maroccans and Iranians have nothing related except their 'faith' and they even disagree and openly hate each other because they practice different schools of Islam. It's like saying Peru and British culture is related because it's both dominantly Christian. Iran really isn't any thing less technologically sophisticated as the west because scientific knowledge is open source for one. Conversely, in Iran they only get told the worst parts about the west and only hear the best parts of their own country. That some suspects of terrorism (propaganda talk for 'freedom fighter') get tortured is the tip of the iceberg. Sure you hear all the time about 'OMG, ANOTHER IRANIAN WAS PUT TO DEATH FOR BEING RAPED' but that's a seldom occasion there. And in the US people are put into jail for yawning in court as observers because the judge found it 'indecent conduct', it's an exception, but that's what they hear in Iran.

Propaganda is omnipræsent, patriotism is propaganda talk for propaganda. There is no way a human being without a mind so resilient that it fails to absorb any moral and cultural norms and thus be classed as sociopathic can not significantly be influenced by it. The very fact that about all people would rather not live in a completely different culture, no matter in what culture they grew up, and that this trend continues if they were adopted from another culture should say enough. Children are simply brainwashed to love their own culture, not on purpose, and this is what keeps a culture from collapsing in the end.

[Template]

wow. that was like listening to a creationist argue science.

why would Cain believe any western propaganda?
what would make you think he would?
just curious.

Because Cain's not superhuman I assume?

The very fact that you ask this is a strong indication you do too and are ignorant of it. I do too, but I'm not ignorant about it, propaganda shapes our lives and colours our very being. There's a reason every single person thinks in terms like 'enemy' and 'ally' and thinks that the values of their own culture are the best.

There is no conceivable way except being superhuman to escape its influence, it's every where, all cultures make their citizens believe they have nice things like freedom of expression, diversity, proper morals, allies have them less, enemies lack them altogether. In reality no culture has them and they all just ascribe it to self and believe their own propaganda probably.

That a lot of people in the west seem to think that North Koreans live in poverty and the nation is on the verge of collapse is just the tip of the iceberg. There are countless more things, Turks, Maroccans and Iranians have nothing related except their 'faith' and they even disagree and openly hate each other because they practice different schools of Islam. It's like saying Peru and British culture is related because it's both dominantly Christian. Iran really isn't any thing less technologically sophisticated as the west because scientific knowledge is open source for one. Conversely, in Iran they only get told the worst parts about the west and only hear the best parts of their own country. That some suspects of terrorism (propaganda talk for 'freedom fighter') get tortured is the tip of the iceberg. Sure you hear all the time about 'OMG, ANOTHER IRANIAN WAS PUT TO DEATH FOR BEING RAPED' but that's a seldom occasion there. And in the US people are put into jail for yawning in court as observers because the judge found it 'indecent conduct', it's an exception, but that's what they hear in Iran.

Propaganda is omnipræsent, patriotism is propaganda talk for propaganda. There is no way a human being without a mind so resilient that it fails to absorb any moral and cultural norms and thus be classed as sociopathic can not significantly be influenced by it. The very fact that about all people would rather not live in a completely different culture, no matter in what culture they grew up, and that this trend continues if they were adopted from another culture should say enough. Children are simply brainwashed to love their own culture, not on purpose, and this is what keeps a culture from collapsing in the end.

Hello there.  I notice that you have made more than 50 posts on this board.  Did you know that board guidelines reccomend handling posters' foibles more gently until the 50th post or so?  That means that the gloves are off now--it's all a matter of preference at this point.

STOP BEING SO INTELLECTUALLY ARROGANT.  IT'S PROBABLY MORESO NAIVETE ON YOUR PART, BUT GROW THE HELL UP.

ARE YOU AWARE OF CAIN'S CREDENTIALS?  HE CAN RECOUNT THEM HIMSELF, BUT THEY IMPLY ABILITY TO FILTER PROPAGANDA FROM NEWS SOURCES TO GARNER LEGITIMATE DATA.  YOU SEEM TO HAVE BROUGHT UP SOME INTRIGUING POINTS IN OTHER POSTS, BUT YOUR POOR OVERALL PRESENTATION AND LACK OF REFERENCES RENDER THEM USELESS.  YOU HAVE NO MONOPOLY ON WISDOM.  AS IF YOU HAD ANY TO OFFER.

AND STOP USING THAT GODDAMNED A-E LIGATURE.  YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

[MornTheOrator]

Hello there.  I notice that you have made more than 50 posts on this board.  Did you know that board guidelines reccomend handling posters' foibles more gently until the 50th post or so?  That means that the gloves are off now--it's all a matter of preference at this point.

Board guidelines assume that all people are out to be 'respected' and even then they are flawed and should say 'Get of this board, go outside, boast about having a 24 cm penis, even if you're a woman and claim you have sex with the tenfold of girls + 5 you actually have sex with, especially if you're a woman.', I shall degress into defiance against this authority for failure to properly give me my hypothetically-sought social status of interstellar proportions.

STOP BEING SO INTELLECTUALLY ARROGANT.  IT'S PROBABLY MORESO NAIVETE ON YOUR PART, BUT GROW THE HELL UP.

Stop being such a fool to think you can adequately assess people's 'tone' over text. Get back at your place, realize you're human, realize you colour it, accept that you, like any other human, colour people as arrogant if they disagree with you especially if they have superior points you can't easily attack on content. And then go on with your life and take a beer and go watch some high class British porn.

ARE YOU AWARE OF CAIN'S CREDENTIALS?  HE CAN RECOUNT THEM HIMSELF, BUT THEY IMPLY ABILITY TO FILTER PROPAGANDA FROM NEWS SOURCES TO GARNER LEGITIMATE DATA.  YOU SEEM TO HAVE BROUGHT UP SOME INTRIGUING POINTS IN OTHER POSTS, BUT YOUR POOR OVERALL PRESENTATION AND LACK OF REFERENCES RENDER THEM USELESS.  YOU HAVE NO MONOPOLY ON WISDOM.  AS IF YOU HAD ANY TO OFFER.

IN ROMA TEXTI SINE MINISCVLIS SCRIPTI ERANT. SED NVNC NON SVNT. SPQR.

DON'T YOU THINK THAT IN LATIN IT LOOKS A LOT LESS AS IF I SCREAM BUT ACTUALLY QUITE CLASSY KIND OF LIKE AN INSCRIPTION BEFORE THEY INVENTED MACRONS, PUNCTUATION, AND SHIT LIKE THAT, I SHOULD HAVE USED AN INTERPUNCT, I KNOW, BUT I'M LAZY.

AND STOP USING THAT GODDAMNED A-E LIGATURE.  YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

I'm doing it quite right.

Any way, stop being so naïve and overestimate of your own capabilities, you're not able to discern the 'arrogance' of some one over the some plain text, and you probably aren't  even able to do it in real life because usually people just aren't. First try to get the mental discipline to not fall for optical illusions, after that train your mind to not colour the world too much and then come back and I'll join you for a beer.