Justice

[Kai]

Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101

Thats humans for you.

I expect more.

-toa,
this is where everybody laughs at me

I didn't say it was RIGHT. Humans fucking suck. If its not one thing its another, and there will never be "utopia". Since human morality is cyclical, you can never work towards anything except temporary moral action in yourself and those immediate to you. Believing anything else is believing that humans are rational, far sighted beings of "inherent good", whatever that might be. Which they aren't.

[the other anonymous]

Justice is balance.  Doing harm to a monkey is wrong.  Doing harm to a monkey because that monkey harmed another monkey is justice.  So justice is tolerated, or rather welcomed, as the only socially acceptable form of vengeance.

Justice is preventing that harm through education and social policy which makes committing said harm undesirable. Your idea of justice is, as you said, vengeance.

But most bullies were bullied themselves.  So the balance justice wields is always in a subjective context, it cannot hope to right all wrongs and so it does not try.

So what if the bully was bullied? That justifies nothing!

Anything that does not seek to right/prevent all wrongs does not deserve the name Justice.

Oh there are rules we create from simple schoolyard creeds to byzantine laws of the land, and from that we extract the desired feeling of clarity that comes from formulaic categorisation.  Really though, we just want to see another bleed, right one wrong for the ten which got away.

The system sucks. What else is new? Why not work toward creating a better system?

So justice is "fuck you". It's the option left a monkey pissed off that he follows the rules out of fear and sees them being broken without consequence on a daily basis.  It's not the best option, but it is the most satisfying, and that's why it got my vote.

That's not justice; it's rebellion.

-toa,
doesn't know why he feels so strongly about this

[the other anonymous]

Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101

Thats humans for you.

I expect more.

-toa,
this is where everybody laughs at me

I didn't say it was RIGHT. Humans fucking suck. If its not one thing its another, and there will never be "utopia". Since human morality is cyclical, you can never work towards anything except temporary moral action in yourself and those immediate to you. Believing anything else is believing that humans are rational, far sighted beings of "inherent good", whatever that might be. Which they aren't.

You didn't say it was wrong, either. Without a statement to the contrary, most people assume endorsement.

Also, Utopia may not be possible, but why should that stop us from trying?

-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

[Captain Utopia]

-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

Who is this other anonymous, and what have you done with the other anonymous?

[Kai]

Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101

Thats humans for you.

I expect more.

-toa,
this is where everybody laughs at me

I didn't say it was RIGHT. Humans fucking suck. If its not one thing its another, and there will never be "utopia". Since human morality is cyclical, you can never work towards anything except temporary moral action in yourself and those immediate to you. Believing anything else is believing that humans are rational, far sighted beings of "inherent good", whatever that might be. Which they aren't.

You didn't say it was wrong, either. Without a statement to the contrary, most people assume endorsement.

Also, Utopia may not be possible, but why should that stop us from trying?

-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

Because people who seek utopia have no problem finding the ends justify the means.

[Salty]

Justice is always symbolized by a set of scales.
Who is putting what on the scales?
More importantly:
Who or what is holding the scales?
Both of these variables are important because they give substance to an intangible concept, and also because they determine your parameters.

Justice is gone?
What was it doing before it left? Napping?

I think of Justice the same way I think of Heroism, as myths, wishful thinking.
Or rather, Dirt Monkeys are advanced enough to recognize that Justice is something we should strive for, but not advanced enough to implement it.

We tried, and we got Law. Or at least the hope of organized Justice led to Law.*

*Broad Brush.

[the other anonymous]

Because people who seek utopia have no problem finding the ends justify the means.

You have a point. Unless we start with the understanding that there are no ends, only new beginnings.

:rainbows:

-toa,
there should be a fluffy clouds and pink bunnies emoticon

[the other anonymous]

-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

Who is this other anonymous, and what have you done with the other anonymous?

I am my own alt.

[Captain Utopia]

Justice is balance.  Doing harm to a monkey is wrong.  Doing harm to a monkey because that monkey harmed another monkey is justice.  So justice is tolerated, or rather welcomed, as the only socially acceptable form of vengeance.

Justice is preventing that harm through education and social policy which makes committing said harm undesirable. Your idea of justice is, as you said, vengeance.

No. Else a bigger chunk of the money that pours into the legal system would be spent on direct education and direct social policy.

But most bullies were bullied themselves.  So the balance justice wields is always in a subjective context, it cannot hope to right all wrongs and so it does not try.

So what if the bully was bullied? That justifies nothing!

Anything that does not seek to right/prevent all wrongs does not deserve the name Justice.

Anything which seeks the impossible is stupid. It needs no other name.

If a conclusion is simply where you stopped thinking, then justice is simply where you stopped spanking monkeys.

Oh there are rules we create from simple schoolyard creeds to byzantine laws of the land, and from that we extract the desired feeling of clarity that comes from formulaic categorisation.  Really though, we just want to see another bleed, right one wrong for the ten which got away.

The system sucks. What else is new? Why not work toward creating a better system?

Why not indeed. But unless you find a way to quell (or divert?) the monkey bloodlust for vengence, then you're not going to come up with something better.

So justice is "fuck you". It's the option left a monkey pissed off that he follows the rules out of fear and sees them being broken without consequence on a daily basis.  It's not the best option, but it is the most satisfying, and that's why it got my vote.

That's not justice; it's rebellion.

-toa,
doesn't know why he feels so strongly about this

It's conformity demanding conformity out of spite.

[the other anonymous]

FP: Hi. Let's be friends.

-toa,
impossibly stupid

[KopyKat253]

Lets find Justice in Forgiveness. Could you find forgiveness for a gang schmuck who killed your whole family because he was paid to kill the guy in your neighbors place but busted into the wrong house? That is why justice is not possible in human society.

[Captain Utopia]

FP: Hi. Let's be friends.

-toa,
impossibly stupid

I fear there may be a bit of an "emperors new clothes" thing going on, since I don't really have a clue what I'm talking about and I'm just expressing my opinion. Sorry if I came across as unfriendly though - I'm a friend to anyone who'll have me.

-FP,
is "easy" that way.

[the other anonymous]

FP: Hi. Let's be friends.

-toa,
impossibly stupid

I fear there may be a bit of an "emperors new clothes" thing going on, since I don't really have a clue what I'm talking about and I'm just expressing my opinion. Sorry if I came across as unfriendly though - I'm a friend to anyone who'll have me.

-FP,
is "easy" that way.

I didn't think you were unfriendly. I was just backing out of the debate.

-toa,
is "non-confrontational" that way

[The Wizard]

Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

[President Television]

Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

It's because it's always the right answer.