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Cain, this Pakistan thing...

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, December 29, 2009, 07:39:46 PM

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The Good Reverend Roger

December 29, 2009, 07:39:46 PM
Who the hell are the good guys, and who the hell are the bad guys?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

#1
December 29, 2009, 07:43:43 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 29, 2009, 07:39:46 PM
Who the hell are the good guys, and who the hell are the bad guys?

HA! The answer is NO.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

East Coast Hustle

#2
December 29, 2009, 08:24:59 PM
assuming you're operating from a frame of reference based on presumed advantages to US foreign policy:

Bad Guys:

Al Quaeda in Pakistan
Baluchistan Separatists
NWFP Tribal Chiefs & Warlords


Less-bad Guys:

The government


The Really Bad Guys (and the reason none of the rest of it means much):

The ISI, probably the world's shadiest (and most effective) state-run intelligence service, who are pulling strings on all sides of all the conflicts Pakistan is entangled in.

that's my understanding of it. Cain, I'm sure, will have elaborations and corrections.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Cain

#3
December 29, 2009, 08:42:14 PM
Unless something drastic has happened very recently and I missed it (ie; over Xmas, since I haven't been watching the news lately), ECH has it.  Almost every bad thing that has been said of Al-Qaeda is true of the ISI, and several other things besides.  For example, at least Al-Qaeda doesn't run secret prisons (yet).

Everything else is pretty much jockeying for influence on the national level, and not really that interesting or even important, except perhaps the military, who are basically indistinguishable from the ISI anyway.  Both fund Islamic terrorist groups at home and abroad, deal in nuclear weapons tech secrets, carry out proxy wars against the elected government if it does things they don't like, move massive quantities of heroin etc etc

The Good Reverend Roger

#4
December 29, 2009, 08:52:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2009, 08:42:14 PM
Unless something drastic has happened very recently and I missed it (ie; over Xmas, since I haven't been watching the news lately), ECH has it.  Almost every bad thing that has been said of Al-Qaeda is true of the ISI, and several other things besides.  For example, at least Al-Qaeda doesn't run secret prisons (yet).

Everything else is pretty much jockeying for influence on the national level, and not really that interesting or even important, except perhaps the military, who are basically indistinguishable from the ISI anyway.  Both fund Islamic terrorist groups at home and abroad, deal in nuclear weapons tech secrets, carry out proxy wars against the elected government if it does things they don't like, move massive quantities of heroin etc etc

Thanks.  Kinda figured.

Also, thanks to ECH.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

#5
December 29, 2009, 08:59:20 PM
I was doing some reading on the Chechen jihadis not that long ago.  Guess who started moving the Afghan mujahideen into Nagorno-Karabakh to act as special forces for the talent-strapped Azerbaijani army?  And guess who then transported them into Dagestan and Chechnya once they started getting ideas above their station about what to do now that the war was over?  Pakistan rightfully gets a lot of shit for stirring trouble in Kashmir, but they were trucking mujahideen mercenaries everywhere, back in the day.  I haven't even begun to look into some of the central Asian civil wars, but I'd be willing to bet they had a hand in them all.

BabylonHoruv

#6
December 29, 2009, 09:00:27 PM
you left out Taliban, aren't they are a pretty active force in Pakistan now?
You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

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The Good Reverend Roger

#7
December 29, 2009, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2009, 08:59:20 PM
I was doing some reading on the Chechen jihadis not that long ago.  Guess who started moving the Afghan mujahideen into Nagorno-Karabakh to act as special forces for the talent-strapped Azerbaijani army?  And guess who then transported them into Dagestan and Chechnya once they started getting ideas above their station about what to do now that the war was over?  Pakistan rightfully gets a lot of shit for stirring trouble in Kashmir, but they were trucking mujahideen mercenaries everywhere, back in the day.  I haven't even begun to look into some of the central Asian civil wars, but I'd be willing to bet they had a hand in them all.

Any particular reason we pretend these assbags are our allies? 
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

#8
December 29, 2009, 09:03:17 PM
Meh.  Puppets of the ISI and military.  Unruly puppets, and probably only a select few in the military are in on it...but, well, who funds the mosques and charities and religious parties who legitimate the Pakistani Taliban's ideology and provide a steady steam of recruits?  Who created the tribal zones in Pakistan to be their own state within a state where they could do as they pleased with no official oversight?  Who got them all the guns and jeeps?

I suspect all these questions have a common answer.

Cain

#9
December 29, 2009, 09:15:58 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 29, 2009, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2009, 08:59:20 PM
I was doing some reading on the Chechen jihadis not that long ago.  Guess who started moving the Afghan mujahideen into Nagorno-Karabakh to act as special forces for the talent-strapped Azerbaijani army?  And guess who then transported them into Dagestan and Chechnya once they started getting ideas above their station about what to do now that the war was over?  Pakistan rightfully gets a lot of shit for stirring trouble in Kashmir, but they were trucking mujahideen mercenaries everywhere, back in the day.  I haven't even begun to look into some of the central Asian civil wars, but I'd be willing to bet they had a hand in them all.

Any particular reason we pretend these assbags are our allies? 

When the Trans-Afghan Pipeline gets built, a warm water port in a stable country, to sell oil to America would be nice.  Oh, and the Pakistani Army somehow managed to pull strings in America to get....F-15's or 22's, I'm not sure, at a time when they shouldn't have been sold, due to an arms embargo due to their nuclear program, but they got them anyway, somehow.  Blackmail is an ugly word, but so is "assassinating your previous head of state for being a pain in the arse", as is "selling nuclear missiles without the safety manuals to North Korea", all of which have not troubled the consciences of the ISI much.

You'd think if it was as simple a matter as who controlled the pipeline and making sure a rogue warlord didn't put a hole in it, that the USA would have sided more unequivocally with ISI and not gone so hard after the Taliban.  I mean, sure, they can't be trusted, love teh jihad more than teh dollar, but the ISI, as always, pulls the strings, and without Pakistani support the Taliban insurgency would've been dead in the water years ago.  So I think it has more to do with who in Washington knew what Pakistan was up to in the 80s and 90s, but turned a blind eye and signed on the arms deals anyway, because lots of those people are still around, in one capacity or the other.

Cain

#10
December 29, 2009, 09:20:40 PM
Or....I'm just too tired and haven't thought through the geopolitics clearly enough.

I'm pretty sure I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what.  China or Turkey related, maybe.

singer

#11
December 29, 2009, 09:49:27 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 29, 2009, 09:01:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2009, 08:59:20 PM
I was doing some reading on the Chechen jihadis not that long ago.  Guess who started moving the Afghan mujahideen into Nagorno-Karabakh to act as special forces for the talent-strapped Azerbaijani army?  And guess who then transported them into Dagestan and Chechnya once they started getting ideas above their station about what to do now that the war was over?  Pakistan rightfully gets a lot of shit for stirring trouble in Kashmir, but they were trucking mujahideen mercenaries everywhere, back in the day.  I haven't even begun to look into some of the central Asian civil wars, but I'd be willing to bet they had a hand in them all.

Any particular reason we pretend these assbags are our allies? 
That's a good question.  I also wonder if an expanded alliance with Pakistan undercuts a long-time alliance with India... or do we not need them anymore?  (um.   With the notable exception of having a cheap and convenient place for US business interests to off-shore call centers?)
"Magic" is one of the fundamental properties of "Reality"

Cain

#12
December 29, 2009, 09:51:51 PM
No, we like India, because they've fought wars with China in recent history, and have the population to stand up to them.

We also don't trust India, because sooner or later they're going to want to exert that force in other areas of interest, not to mention their past dalliances with the USSR but for now, they're useful as allies of some sort.

The Good Reverend Roger

#13
December 29, 2009, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2009, 09:51:51 PM
No, we like India, because they've fought wars with China in recent history, and have the population to stand up to them.

We also don't trust India, because sooner or later they're going to want to exert that force in other areas of interest, not to mention their past dalliances with the USSR but for now, they're useful as allies of some sort.

And their navy is SO CUTE!   :lulz:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

#14
December 29, 2009, 09:56:16 PM
Well, everyone has to start somewhere.

I'm also presuming the US friendship with India isn't exactly predicated on the hope they will sail between the PLA(N) and Taiwan, to defend the latter from the former, and more like move 400,000 troops to the border, and go "grrrr" and stuff, if needed.  Or parade some nukes or something.
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