Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[Salty]

This thread was started to mock people who put on funny hats and chant enochian to get laid

That's why I take it so personally!  I am all about the funny hats.

How's that working for you?

I've used magicxyz to get laid. Never was worth it.

[East Coast Hustle]

he was being sarcastic, Guy. It was an illustration of how ridiculous that concept actually is.

as for a concise logical argument against the need to use self-deception and trickery to interface with your own mind, I believe that if you read this entire thread you will find that I and several other people have put forth such arguments already, and there are several other threads over the last couple years that have dealt with identical or similar subjects. my inability to continue to lay everything out as a logical argument at this point stems from my frustration and anger at seeing otherwise intelligent and rational people acting as proponents of superstition and needlessly fantastic trappings, a mindset which seems to be dangerous to the overall health of human society when applied on a large scale.

apologies for calling you an idiot, since I have no idea whether you are, in fact, an idiot, but you shoulda caught me a few pages ago. Invective is pretty much all I have left for this subject at this point.

[Shai Hulud]

Right, because all worldviews are merely reactions to our fears and desires and everybody creates fairylands to have solace.

Well said!

Im sorry, that was sarcastic.

Yeah, I noticed that a little too late, c'est la vie.

And i only get this big fucking anxiety that fuels my cigarrette addiction and hedonistic behaviour.

Sounds like fun, where's the problem?

[Faust]

A reminder that language and expression is already one step removed from your true identity (your mind) and that adding stupid names and rituals to get an effect is adding another redundant layer.

When I want to feel something I narrate it "and so I felt a melancholy" or "and so my mind entered a state of intense focus and concentration".
If you need to call that magic or attach redundant ritualistic fluff to that, I pity you.

[Shai Hulud]

This thread was started to mock people who put on funny hats and chant enochian to get laid

That's why I take it so personally!  I am all about the funny hats.

How's that working for you?

I'm still waiting for fedoras to come back in fashion, too bad the only people that wear them anymore are pabst drinking hipsters.

I've used magicxyz to get laid. Never was worth it.

I don't dabble in magic myself, I prefer the cold comfort of rationalism.  Of course, when it comes to getting laid I suppose you have to make some sacrifices.

[Shai Hulud]

When I want to feel something I narrate it "and so I felt a melancholy" or "and so my mind entered a state of intense focus and concentration".
If you need to call that magic or attach redundant ritualistic fluff to that, I pity you.

That's the sort of thing I take issue with, Faust.  Certainly it's your business who you pity, but how can you say that when the very sentence before you talk about narrating your own life to yourself, something equally absurd as magic.  If that's not redundant ritualistic fluff, nothing is!  I mean, you seriously narrate to yourself, or am I missing the sarcasm again?

It may very well be a redundant layer, but then again maybe it isn't redundant at all for some people.  Maybe for some people magic is like Dumbo's magic feather, without which they can't fly.  Sure, in the end Dumbo learned how to go without, but life isn't like a Disney movie, and people sometimes need those feathers.  I don't pity them, any more than I pity you for your personal narration.  But that's your own business.

[The Johnny]

Right, because all worldviews are merely reactions to our fears and desires and everybody creates fairylands to have solace.

Well said!

Im sorry, that was sarcastic.

Yeah, I noticed that a little too late, c'est la vie.

And i only get this big fucking anxiety that fuels my cigarrette addiction and hedonistic behaviour.

Sounds like fun, where's the problem?

The problem is that you fail to see, that this is an example between building your worldview around fears and reactions compared to buildint your worldview around what most likely is true (in other words, that were most likely turning into worm food, rather than go play with puppies in a garden).

[The Johnny]

In a simpler fashion: not all worldviews are the same.

[Shai Hulud]

The problem is that you fail to see, that this is an example between building your worldview around fears and reactions compared to buildint your worldview around what most likely is true (in other words, that were most likely turning into worm food, rather than go play with puppies in a garden).

I don't fail to see that, you're putting words in my mouth.  To my infinite regret I took your words at face value, but nonetheless they were not mine.  I never said the illusions that give rise to a particular worldview are always based on fear.  In fact they are often based on much more useful emotions, like a desire to do good.

And you say yourself, we can only ever know what is "most likely" true.  That's a matter of opinion, where reasonable (and unreasonable) people can disagree.  The people that I pity are the ones who think they have a monopoly on Truth.

[Shai Hulud]

In a simpler fashion: not all worldviews are the same.

Again, my point is not that they are all the same, but that they are all acquired in the same way and thus susceptible to the same fallibility.

[Faust]

When I want to feel something I narrate it "and so I felt a melancholy" or "and so my mind entered a state of intense focus and concentration".
If you need to call that magic or attach redundant ritualistic fluff to that, I pity you.

That's the sort of thing I take issue with, Faust.  Certainly it's your business who you pity, but how can you say that when the very sentence before you talk about narrating your own life to yourself, something equally absurd as magic.  If that's not redundant ritualistic fluff, nothing is!  I mean, you seriously narrate to yourself, or am I missing the sarcasm again?

It may very well be a redundant layer, but then again maybe it isn't redundant at all for some people.  Maybe for some people magic is like Dumbo's magic feather, without which they can't fly.  Sure, in the end Dumbo learned how to go without, but life isn't like a Disney movie, and people sometimes need those feathers.  I don't pity them, any more than I pity you for your personal narration.  But that's your own business.

Shhh its not supposed to be YOU who springs that trap, the word pity was loaded.
But yes I agree with what you are saying, there is no distinction between what I do other then my self delusion is closer to the bone. And I don't narrate my life, I narrate what I want to happen in the short term, its a really useful study method. "All the distractions left my mind" and such.

[The Johnny]

The problem is that you fail to see, that this is an example between building your worldview around fears and reactions compared to buildint your worldview around what most likely is true (in other words, that were most likely turning into worm food, rather than go play with puppies in a garden).

I don't fail to see that, you're putting words in my mouth.  To my infinite regret I took your words at face value, but nonetheless they were not mine.  I never said the illusions that give rise to a particular worldview are always based on fear.  In fact they are often based on much more useful emotions, like a desire to do good.

And you say yourself, we can only ever know what is "most likely" true.  That's a matter of opinion, where reasonable (and unreasonable) people can disagree.  The people that I pity are the ones who think they have a monopoly on Truth.

I know you didnt mean only fear gives rise to these illusions, i just found it the best example.

Did you read this entire fread? Im thinking we are going at least the second time around some of the arguments that have already been said.

[East Coast Hustle]

he said he came in at page 15, and clearly has not read the rest of the thread or is willfully ignoring it.

[Shai Hulud]

Shhh its not supposed to be YOU who springs that trap, the word pity was loaded.
But yes I agree with what you are saying, there is no distinction between what I do other then my self delusion is closer to the bone. And I don't narrate my life, I narrate what I want to happen in the short term, its a really useful study method. "All the distractions left my mind" and such.

Haha, sorry if I messed up your gambit.  But I'm glad we can agree.  And I actually don't think the self narration is absurd, it sounds like a pretty cool idea to help keep your mind in the present.  Kind of like the focus on breathing in Zen meditation, if I may put on my funny buddhist hat.

[East Coast Hustle]

as for a concise logical argument against the need to use self-deception and trickery to interface with your own mind, I believe that if you read this entire thread you will find that I and several other people have put forth such arguments already, and there are several other threads over the last couple years that have dealt with identical or similar subjects. my inability to continue to lay everything out as a logical argument at this point stems from my frustration and anger at seeing otherwise intelligent and rational people acting as proponents of superstition and needlessly fantastic trappings, a mindset which seems to be dangerous to the overall health of human society when applied on a large scale.

also, Guy, still waiting for a response to this.