Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[The Johnny]

I'd guess that objective morality manifests after an understanding that group cooperation is more beneficial than overall contention.  Not that the two aren't mutually exclusive (that would be naive) but it at very least seems like it might might be a piece of the foundation of objective morality.

Id like to make a differentation between "objective morality" and a "group contract".

Objective morality referes to "THE TRUTH" that everyone should stick to.

While a "group contract" like constitutions or laws are just what a group of people find more convenient and pragmatic (supposedly).

[NotPublished]

I'd guess that objective morality manifests after an understanding that group cooperation is more beneficial than overall contention.  Not that the two aren't mutually exclusive (that would be naive) but it at very least seems like it might might be a piece of the foundation of objective morality.

Id like to make a differentation between "objective morality" and a "group contract".

Objective morality referes to "THE TRUTH" that everyone should stick to.

While a "group contract" like constitutions or laws are just what a group of people find more convenient and pragmatic (supposedly).

Yes that is why I have trouble grapsing what Objective Morality actually is

[Shai Hulud]

I'd guess that objective morality manifests after an understanding that group cooperation is more beneficial than overall contention.  Not that the two aren't mutually exclusive (that would be naive) but it at very least seems like it might might be a piece of the foundation of objective morality.

I think this is a very interesting point.  I think there could very well be something about morality that is inherently tied to the species, if I'm reading you right.  I recall reading something in evolutionary theory about how morality developed along with religion as a means of promoting survival through cooperation.  Maybe there is some sort of objective morality hardwired into our brains?  Perhaps I'm getting to speculative here.

[The Johnny]

I take the Aristotelian position that happiness is the higher good. That said, I enjoy the hell out of being an asshole.

Your take is more like Max Stirner's.

[Bu🤠ns]

I'd guess that objective morality manifests after an understanding that group cooperation is more beneficial than overall contention.  Not that the two aren't mutually exclusive (that would be naive) but it at very least seems like it might might be a piece of the foundation of objective morality.

I think this is a very interesting point.  I think there could very well be something about morality that is inherently tied to the species, if I'm reading you right.  I recall reading something in evolutionary theory about how morality developed along with religion as a means of promoting survival through cooperation.  Maybe there is some sort of objective morality hardwired into our brains?  Perhaps I'm getting to speculative here.

1. I'm never not speculative. (i don't think)

2. you read me right.  

4. JohNyx, I hear that.  I posited this in attempt to attempt to steer away from an absolute point of view yet retain the sense of morality....hence "piece of the foundation" and "not mutually exclusive".  

[Shai Hulud]

I'd guess that objective morality manifests after an understanding that group cooperation is more beneficial than overall contention.  Not that the two aren't mutually exclusive (that would be naive) but it at very least seems like it might might be a piece of the foundation of objective morality.

Id like to make a differentation between "objective morality" and a "group contract".

Objective morality referes to "THE TRUTH" that everyone should stick to.

While a "group contract" like constitutions or laws are just what a group of people find more convenient and pragmatic (supposedly).

Yes, that's it, the social contract is something totally separate and distinct from morality, in fact the two have nothing to do with one another.  Morality cannot possibly inform the social contract, and while we're at it let's just say the end's justify the means as well.

Italics are for my evil alter ego, too.

[The Johnny]

I'd guess that objective morality manifests after an understanding that group cooperation is more beneficial than overall contention.  Not that the two aren't mutually exclusive (that would be naive) but it at very least seems like it might might be a piece of the foundation of objective morality.

Id like to make a differentation between "objective morality" and a "group contract".

Objective morality referes to "THE TRUTH" that everyone should stick to.

While a "group contract" like constitutions or laws are just what a group of people find more convenient and pragmatic (supposedly).

Yes that is why I have trouble grapsing what Objective Morality actually is

Objective Morality: what some noob by his "superior knowledge" claims to be THE TRUTH about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.

[The Johnny]

I'd guess that objective morality manifests after an understanding that group cooperation is more beneficial than overall contention.  Not that the two aren't mutually exclusive (that would be naive) but it at very least seems like it might might be a piece of the foundation of objective morality.

Id like to make a differentation between "objective morality" and a "group contract".

Objective morality referes to "THE TRUTH" that everyone should stick to.

While a "group contract" like constitutions or laws are just what a group of people find more convenient and pragmatic (supposedly).

Yes, that's it, the social contract is something totally separate and distinct from morality, in fact the two have nothing to do with one another.  Morality cannot possibly inform the social contract, and while we're at it let's just say the end's justify the means as well.

Italics are for my evil alter ego, too.

You were doing well, until you added the "ends justify the means" because that is not at all related.

Dont crap up my style.

And you are twisting my words, because i was talking about "objective morality" not morality in itself.

[Shai Hulud]

Objective Morality: what some noob by his "superior knowledge" claims to be THE TRUTH about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.

Why do I think this is directed at me?  n00bzor though I may be, I have no place claimed to have superior knowledge, expect as opposed to the odd asshat who doesn't bother with thinking.  Also, my criteria for objective morality throughout these posts, is that it be accessible to all equal, by means of conscience or intuition.  Or maybe it wasn't direct at me after all, since it seems to be so absurdly unapt (apart from my reckless noobitry).

[The Johnny]

Objective Morality: what some noob by his "superior knowledge" claims to be THE TRUTH about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.

Why do I think this is directed at me?  n00bzor though I may be, I have no place claimed to have superior knowledge, expect as opposed to the odd asshat who doesn't bother with thinking.  Also, my criteria for objective morality throughout these posts, is that it be accessible to all equal, by means of conscience or intuition.  Or maybe it wasn't direct at me after all, since it seems to be so absurdly unapt (apart from my reckless noobitry).

I was speaking on a general note, it wasnt a jab at you.

[Shai Hulud]

You were doing well, until you added the "ends justify the means" because that is not at all related.

Dont crap up my style.

Just having some fun, and getting even for taking your evil persona literally earlier.  By the way, I love the gimmick and wanted an excuse to steal it since I first read it:)

And you are twisting my words, because i was talking about "objective morality" not morality in itself.

Intriguing, then what is morality in itself, if not objective?  I would argue that non-objective morality isn't morality at all.Isn't subjective morality tantamount to "taste?"  But I am interested to hear what you have to say.

[Shai Hulud]

I take the Aristotelian position that happiness is the higher good. That said, I enjoy the hell out of being an asshole.

Your take is more like Max Stirner's.

Well, Stirner is bad, but he isn't nearly as bad as Rand.

[Shai Hulud]

Objective Morality: what some noob by his "superior knowledge" claims to be THE TRUTH about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.

Why do I think this is directed at me?  n00bzor though I may be, I have no place claimed to have superior knowledge, expect as opposed to the odd asshat who doesn't bother with thinking.  Also, my criteria for objective morality throughout these posts, is that it be accessible to all equal, by means of conscience or intuition.  Or maybe it wasn't direct at me after all, since it seems to be so absurdly unapt (apart from my reckless noobitry).

I was speaking on a general note, it wasnt a jab at you.

Ok, my bad.  Withdrawn.

[The Johnny]

Morality: a system of values regarding right and wrong.

I have a moral system, others have different ones.

morality (countable and uncountable; plural moralities)

   1. (uncountable) Recognition of the distinction between good and evil or between right and wrong; respect for and obedience to the rules of right conduct; the mental disposition or characteristic of behaving in a manner intended to produce morally good results.

[The Johnny]

When old bonebags say of the younger generations "these kids have no morals", its a lack of recognition that these "kids" have different appreciations of what is right and wrong.