Tea Party: No longer harmless nutters

[Elder Iptuous]

interesting.
edited it for more iWalkiness...

[LMNO]

That must have worked, since it's now being blocked by my firewall.

[Doktor Howl]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-about-deterrence-and-death-penalty

And the sources for these awful theory-killers can be found here:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates#stateswithvwithout

Someone should do something about these bastards at the census bureau and those liberal freaks at the FBI.   

Solid sources. Nice. But then again, there's the matter of how often the death penalty has been used in the past decade or so? The site you cited pointed out that the U.S. only recently got out of a dry period for the death penalty. So, it's been a couple decades since the death penalty been really taken seriously, and even then, many people sentenced to death might as well get a life sentence given how long it takes for them to finally get there. So, the way the death penalty's been used and is used currently, it's been effectively neutered.

A  couple of decades is plenty, given the average age of criminals sentenced to death row.

Also, stripping away the mandatory appeals process isn't going to make the nut, given the number of people exonerated by that process.

[Elder Iptuous]

That must have worked, since it's now being blocked by my firewall.

i hate that.... i miss all the spagbook and wompertainment action at work....

you are aware of the toyota robot i was referring to?  just google toyota iwalk if not.  it's nifty.


Dok,
i didn't look at the numbers you pointed to (don't have any reason to deny them), but do they analyze the deterrent effect of imprisonment in general?

obvious next topic: is deterrence the primary goal of the death sentence?

[Doktor Howl]

That must have worked, since it's now being blocked by my firewall.

i hate that.... i miss all the spagbook and wompertainment action at work....

you are aware of the toyota robot i was referring to?  just google toyota iwalk if not.  it's nifty.


Dok,
i didn't look at the numbers you pointed to (don't have any reason to deny them), but do they analyze the deterrent effect of imprisonment in general?

obvious next topic: is deterrence the primary goal of the death sentence?

1.  Imprisonment as we use it creates a worse problem.

2.  No, the primary value of execution is to remove the offending person from the population.  My problem with it is that it's irrevocable, and our error margin is too wide.

[Jenne]

1.  Imprisonment as we use it creates a worse problem.

2.  No, the primary value of execution is to remove the offending person from the population.  My problem with it is that it's irrevocable, and our error margin is too wide.

THIS.  Times a bajillion.

[Elder Iptuous]

Yeppa,
totally agree, Dok.
have you heard of the Innocence Project here in TX?

http://www.innocenceprojectoftexas.org/

an interesting story that i heard an interview of was a lady who now works with the innocence project.   She was raped years ago, and said that as she was being raped she decided to do what little she could by looking at the guy.  she said she really studied his face.  etched it into her memory.
when the cops had a lineup for her to see, she immediately recognized the guy that raped her.  she pointed him out as she cried and was convinced it was him.  the guy was convicted and sentenced to many years in prison.  he served many years insisting that he was innocent.  It wasn't until another prisoner that was in on some other charge bragged about the fact that he raped this lady and got away with it.  he laughed at the other guy for getting busted for it.   when this came to light, he was proven innocent by this projects efforts in using modern DNA evidence that didn't exist at the time.  the lady was torn up that she had done this to the guy even though she was so sure of it at the time....
she now works for the project.
even eye witness accounts aren't foolproof.

what's a society to do?

[Doktor Howl]

what's a society to do?

Accept that the system isn't perfect, do our best, and don't do anything irrevocable.

[Jenne]

what's a society to do?

Accept that the system isn't perfect, do our best, and don't do anything irrevocable.

I'll go one further:

Invest in education.  Education prevents 1) poverty 2) crime.  Both poverty and crime are self-perpetuators for the prison system.

Of course, educating your populace puts your power at risk.  So why even go there, eh?

[Elder Iptuous]

what's a society to do?

Accept that the system isn't perfect, do our best, and don't do anything irrevocable.

i like the first two, but you have to acknowledge that everything is irrevocable, in a sense.
you stick a guy in prison for years, to have him later exonerated, and those years lost can't be brought back....
better than a posthumous apology, but certainly not revocable.
i think we have to do our best knowing that we are making irrevocable decisions.  and in this context, i would say that the death penalty is a viable punishment.  we just have to be extremely careful with this extreme sentence...
then i hear about miscarriage of justice like in the example above, where there was no negligence or malicious intent, and think that it is better to err on the side of caution.  better to live in a dangerous society than a tyrannical society, and all...
perhaps a moot point as we are entering a surveillance, society sure as dawn...

[Doktor Howl]

what's a society to do?

Accept that the system isn't perfect, do our best, and don't do anything irrevocable.

I'll go one further:

Invest in education.  Education prevents 1) poverty 2) crime.  Both poverty and crime are self-perpetuators for the prison system.

Of course, educating your populace puts your power at risk.  So why even go there, eh?

Yep.  Our state is considering 4 day school week.  Two districts in the Big Empty (North end of the state) have already done so.

[Jenne]

what's a society to do?

Accept that the system isn't perfect, do our best, and don't do anything irrevocable.

I'll go one further:

Invest in education.  Education prevents 1) poverty 2) crime.  Both poverty and crime are self-perpetuators for the prison system.

Of course, educating your populace puts your power at risk.  So why even go there, eh?

Yep.  Our state is considering 4 day school week.  Two districts in the Big Empty (North end of the state) have already done so.

Many states are doing that now--so "teaching to the test" is becoming more and more of an imperative.  Especially now that the Obama administration is seeking to unite all the school improvement programs, so that the diversification factors are reduced.  Simpler doesn't always mean better when it comes to assessment, however.

[Doktor Howl]

Many states are doing that now--so "teaching to the test" is becoming more and more of an imperative. 

Fucking useless.

[Jenne]

Many states are doing that now--so "teaching to the test" is becoming more and more of an imperative.

Fucking useless.

Assessment has its values. (seeingashowI'memployedbyonesuchassessmentcompanyahem)

However.  I think most would agree that it's short-sighted and doesn't seek to teach in a well-rounded fashion to any degree.  Sickens me how the pendulum has swung.  It does, every decade or so.  But it's soooo far to the "top-down" approach at this point it's driving me just a weensy bit insane (moreso that I am already).  Thing is, this is what the political catchall is for education.

[Doktor Howl]

Many states are doing that now--so "teaching to the test" is becoming more and more of an imperative.

Fucking useless.

Assessment has its values. (seeingashowI'memployedbyonesuchassessmentcompanyahem)

However.  I think most would agree that it's short-sighted and doesn't seek to teach in a well-rounded fashion to any degree.  Sickens me how the pendulum has swung.  It does, every decade or so.  But it's soooo far to the "top-down" approach at this point it's driving me just a weensy bit insane (moreso that I am already).  Thing is, this is what the political catchall is for education.

It's become a religion, too.  NCLB was a joke from the beginning, but it's viewed as political suicide to say as much.  Mostly because the dems are spineless toads.  Even Olbermann was talking like it was a good thing.

Assessment is fine, but the tests should be an unknown and should cross multiple subjects.  They SHOULD be difficult, and they should be done at random times.  If the subjects are taught properly, there should be no problem.