Democracy = Socialism? Conservative Movement endgame in sight.

[BabylonHoruv]

Oh, i have, too.  i was just saying that from the conversations that i've had with people talking the 'republic, not democracy' thing, they weren't discussing disenfranchising any groups of people...

Oh, I don't say they advocate this for the most part, just that if you're against democracy, it's sort of implied. I don't expect most of these folks to get that without being backed into a corner, however.

I'm not offering an academic analysis of their political philosophy. I'm suggesting an angle to attack them that involves backing them into that corner and watching them screw it up.

I would also suggest that for populists to speak out against popular rule creates another weakness to be exploited.

Nah, they want you to be able to vote for whichever of the privileged class you would like.

[Jasper]

I would also suggest that for populists to speak out against popular rule creates another weakness to be exploited.

This is magnificently put.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

 If everyone gets a vote on something its a democracy. State issues, city issues, county issues ALL are democratically decided 1 citizen = 1 vote = majority wins. The ONLY area in which we are a Republic is in National issues, where representatives to the Republic are Democratically elected!

So, ENKI's pedantic rant is wrong. The Teabaggers are wrong. The United States of America is a democracy AND a republic (and depending on which conspiracy you subscribe to, an oligarchy, a puppet of the Illuminati etc).

However, I'm still not following the democracy->anarchy->socialism line of thinking since democracy and socialism are part of most "anarchy" models. Further it seems that exactly the same argument could be made for republic->socialism without the stop at scare word anarchy.... in fact, if a few more Democrats held seats in the Senate and House, there would likely be several 'socialist' programs put in place.

I'm also confused by how "tyranny of the majority" leads to socialism, but I'm still from the reality where "white Christians, who tend to be anti-socialism" ARE the majority. Apparently this has changed in the minds of the white christian anti-socialists.

[BabylonHoruv]

If everyone gets a vote on something its a democracy. State issues, city issues, county issues ALL are democratically decided 1 citizen = 1 vote = majority wins. The ONLY area in which we are a Republic is in National issues, where representatives to the Republic are Democratically elected!

So, ENKI's pedantic rant is wrong. The Teabaggers are wrong. The United States of America is a democracy AND a republic (and depending on which conspiracy you subscribe to, an oligarchy, a puppet of the Illuminati etc).

However, I'm still not following the democracy->anarchy->socialism line of thinking since democracy and socialism are part of most "anarchy" models. Further it seems that exactly the same argument could be made for republic->socialism without the stop at scare word anarchy.... in fact, if a few more Democrats held seats in the Senate and House, there would likely be several 'socialist' programs put in place.

I'm also confused by how "tyranny of the majority" leads to socialism, but I'm still from the reality where "white Christians, who tend to be anti-socialism" ARE the majority. Apparently this has changed in the minds of the white christian anti-socialists.

Most state laws are made in a republican manner (that is, by the elected officials) and not all states even have a referendum and initiative process.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If everyone gets a vote on something its a democracy. State issues, city issues, county issues ALL are democratically decided 1 citizen = 1 vote = majority wins. The ONLY area in which we are a Republic is in National issues, where representatives to the Republic are Democratically elected!

So, ENKI's pedantic rant is wrong. The Teabaggers are wrong. The United States of America is a democracy AND a republic (and depending on which conspiracy you subscribe to, an oligarchy, a puppet of the Illuminati etc).

However, I'm still not following the democracy->anarchy->socialism line of thinking since democracy and socialism are part of most "anarchy" models. Further it seems that exactly the same argument could be made for republic->socialism without the stop at scare word anarchy.... in fact, if a few more Democrats held seats in the Senate and House, there would likely be several 'socialist' programs put in place.

I'm also confused by how "tyranny of the majority" leads to socialism, but I'm still from the reality where "white Christians, who tend to be anti-socialism" ARE the majority. Apparently this has changed in the minds of the white christian anti-socialists.

Most state laws are made in a republican manner (that is, by the elected officials) and not all states even have a referendum and initiative process.

Fair point.

[Jenne]

One of the hardest things to do when speaking to, with or about legislators and their punditry is dealing with the disconnect between the politician and reality.  The Teabaggers and their dogged acceptance of a partyline that's consistently flawed, fallible and just ridiculously revisionist are a prime example of people who've accepted this wholesale attempt to rewrite what's been going on the last decade or so.

There's NO acceptance on the behalf of the Conservative leaders, NATIONWIDE, of the extremist mistakes the GOP took part in governing the US throughout the '00's.  They don't see their defeat in 2008 as a signal that they are out of touch and guilty of crashing our country into disaster after disaster...more likely that they see the larger coastal states as simply "bedazzled" by a slick kid from the Windy City.

Add to that the now-seemlingly-accepted ingrained bigotry of a White America that's feeling displaced culturally but is truly just simply held back like some 10 year old in 3rd grade, and we're now dealing with the fallout in their misdirected efforts to dial back disappointment with initiative.  Initiative that is starting to be epicly frightening in its efforts to realign a very broken and disjointed party.

Their so-called "unity of thought" and direction is actually no longer a truism.  I think they've realiably splintered off from some of their greatest and largest supporters and movers/shakers during their heydey.  Witness the ousting of more centrist (har!) players like Frum, throwing under the bus their Obama-doppleganger-Steele, and then the fallout of their Christian-Reich-leaders like Tony "family research council" Perkins calling for an old-fashioned financial lynching...

there's blood in the water.

Even more chilling...the Democrats won't take this as a go-ahead to do anything worthwhile but will instead just watch as the media sharks out the territory, and more likely the GOP will end up just using this as a time to regroup and give more weight to the scarier, wilder aspects to the "Don't Tread on Me" KKK-esque Teabag'd movement. 

So, with a weak-kneed, more right-of-center than any Liberal has a right to be and yet still using the L-word, Democratic majority that has timidly moved forward with the litany of really-too-good-to-be-true campaign promises, together with a GOP that resembles one of those dirty-nun costumes the chicks wear on Halloween...it'll be interesting to see what else can be wrought from this chunky decade of spendthrift neediness.  I expect Revisionism is the new Purism...and we'll see more and more of it as the pendulum, which I thought was swinging a bit more centrally with the rejection of the GOP's candidacy and the embracing of Obamites in the start of '09...seems to be locked in a right-of-center position for the duration.

Where's the anger?  Where's the disappointment?  Heh...it's in the smashed window of a Democratic Congressperson, broken at the hand of an out-of-work 50-year-old with no education or prospects, who thinks it's all those health care mongrels that's distroying his double-wide fantasies of Cadillac proportions...

[Iason Ouabache]

One of the hardest things to do when speaking to, with or about legislators and their punditry is dealing with the disconnect between the politician and reality.  The Teabaggers and their dogged acceptance of a partyline that's consistently flawed, fallible and just ridiculously revisionist are a prime example of people who've accepted this wholesale attempt to rewrite what's been going on the last decade or so.

There's NO acceptance on the behalf of the Conservative leaders, NATIONWIDE, of the extremist mistakes the GOP took part in governing the US throughout the '00's.  They don't see their defeat in 2008 as a signal that they are out of touch and guilty of crashing our country into disaster after disaster...more likely that they see the larger coastal states as simply "bedazzled" by a slick kid from the Windy City.

That's the problem, Jenne. They have this deeply ingrained belief that conservatism can't fail, it can only be failed by people. If their policies don't work in reality that just means that it's reality's fault for not trying hard enough.

[johnnybrainwash]

However, I'm still not following the democracy->anarchy->socialism line of thinking since democracy and socialism are part of most "anarchy" models.

In the time the Constitution was written, the word "democracy" was often uttered in the same breath as "anarchy." These were sometimes associated with "atheism" as well. I fail to see the problem, but others apparently differ.

Realistically, the worry has always been that the poor are going to vote themselves the rich's money.

Most state laws are made in a republican manner (that is, by the elected officials) and not all states even have a referendum and initiative process.

Representative democracy is still democracy.

I've got to say that living in a state that's big on initiatives and referendums, and watching the state to the south that practically defines them, I can see much more of an argument against direct democracy than I like to admit. It's not even the tyranny of the majority thing, although that rears its head now and then. It's the inability of the average citizen without a staff and special training to balance or even understand a state budget or how governments have to operate.

Anyway, just to take it beyond the representative vs direct democracy divide, check out the SDS talking about participatory democracy. And come to think of it, the SDS was descended from the SLID, Student League for Industrial Democracy. Back in the 30s, "industrial democracy" was a polite phrase for an American form of socialism. Which brings us right back to the democracy=socialism thing again.

[Jenne]

There IS a thing to be said for democracy fucking up the works.  I think the citizens of CA, USA fucked themsevles with a spike when they voted for term limits.  At the time, in the 90's, "vote the bastards out" seemed like a good idea.  Hegemony + oligarchy's always a risk you take with the process we have to get elected, and more and more "career politicians" were coming down the pike.  We have one of its Boy Wonders Now Decrepit running alone on the Dem ticket for Governator pretty soon: Jerry Brown.  (...but I digress)

The CAn voters voted for the term limits with the "hopey-changey" thing (thank YOU, Sarah Palin!) in mind all those years ago:  that the same old bidness would be swept aside in favor of Reform! Improvement! and we got a big fat dick instead.  

The junior members of Congress in Sacramento had to hit the ground RUNNING.  They had to know what programs were their pets before their aides had brewed their first pot of coffee.  This was problematic.  Back then, CA was the world's 5th largest economy--there were myriads of issues to be put to bed and solved!  And with the ever-present partisan politics running the capitol, fuck getting anything done the easy way.

So the term limits, while "throwing the bums out" on their cans when they'd been there for a while as projected, also had the added effect of putting people in places of power where they could do more harm than good in many instances.  With this hugeass economy and a dot-com bubble that burst all over their faces like morning dew, Sacramento legislators only got half-assed legislation through.  The research was relatively undone.  It's been a most disgusting display all throughout the 00's.  I suspect the 10's will be no better.

So, in the hands of the people, the good will of the leadership is lost, really.  It's a race to get elected to a higher, "better" office now.  The career piece in "career politician" is now set...because there's not enough time to do anything else but run your next campaign.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Realistically, the worry has always been that the poor are going to vote themselves the rich's money.

Our founding fathers should have written for Popular Mechanics back in the 1950s.

KITCHEN OF THE FUTURE <--- Got everything wrong.