Drama Vote: Voice your opinion on the recent drama.

[Doktor Howl]

The thing I wanted to say before I left to go hang out with my girlfriends, which is only tangentially related to this thread but is triggered by something posted in it. And here perhaps I will sound like a Roger fanboi, but I still want to say it, is that as emotionally volatile as he is, as crazyfuckingwhoa as he is, on the subject of him having my back and how grateful I am of it, is that he is the guy who called me every fucking day, sometimes twice a day, when I was at my very worst times, when I really was losing my fucking shit over my divorce and my breakup with Boots, to make sure I was OK.

And that is a person who really fucking has your back.

Day in and day out, even when we were fighting online, just to make sure I was feeding myself and working and to pep/shit talk me through another fucking day. So even if this whole thread is a pile of shit, just to say, fucking hell, a bunch of pixels on a screen really came though for me there, and if I lost my shit for a few days in January/February or whenever that was because I thought I had fucked that up, well you know, it's not easy to lose your goddamn Spiritual Advisor. And as long as I am, to borrow some words from Christianity, right with Roger, I know I'm right with the world. So it is good to be right with Roger.

That guy, who tried to drive me off and made me cry (IRL OMG) in my first couple weeks here, is the reason I stuck around in the first place. Not because of the power of his mind-rays, but because here, I thought, was a place where people spoke their minds and if you felt a little fragile you put on a fucking hat... and also a place where people are treated as more than just "pixels on a screen". Having a bad day? Be a cranky dick, just be overt about it. Having a fragile day? Be a fucking piece of porcelain, just be overt about it, because one thing I noticed is that people would accept aggressive hyperbole as aggressive hyperbole and fuck you back and laugh it off, but if you were actually honestly in need of kindness, you would get kindness. Or if you just wanted to spew, that was OK too. And creativity... that shit was out of bounds, kind of in the way that's only OK in mental wards. Good shit.

You know who else? There are some fucking upright human beings here. Yatto, after being sent through the hazing gamut, sent me fucking TEA, which he knows through paying a touching kind of attention (and I mean that in a non-creepy way) is practically my lifeblood. So many other people here have been amazing, fabulous, supportive human beings, and if we fight we fight in the way I do with my actual in-person friends; nobody rips up the fabric from another person's life and flogs them with it, with very few exceptions. So for the most part, I don't think the forum is fucking broken, and I am going to put Roger at the headmast of why it's still afloat, after donning my tinfoil hat and my hive-mind controls. It's basic humanity, love it or loathe it.

[Doktor Howl]

Too much unignorable noise.
Dr. Paes and this weird old alt are not going to be posting here again and I'm unlikely to be in IRC.
Maybe some new alt will return in the future, because nobody ever leaves, but the plan as it exists now is not to do so.
Am in the wrong headspace to dig through all the fail to find the gold which is buried in these here hills.
End up emotionally involved in dramas which are not my own, or something.

Also, what Pent said, but the poop-flinging isn't entertaining anymore.

Take care, everyone.

Bummer.  I wish you wouldn't go.  We've gone through weirder times than these...and senseless fights are just as much part of the human condition.  We're all used to being the weirdest, most creative people in the room IRL, so it's natural that there's going to be some level of head-bumping here.

[LMNO]

The level of tension and drama is at a high point... and whatever reasons that bring about this cycle, the two figures it has crystallized around this time are TTM and Nigel.

Obviously, the two do not like each other.  And although we can debate for hours over "who started it", the only truth worth noting is that BOTH of them are perpetuating it.

TTM has stated that he will call Nigel out any time he feels she is being nasty, and Nigel has stated she will in turn poke TTM because she finds it amusing.  And, of course, because neither of them like the other.

The point being, it no longer matters who "starts" something, because each of their stated behaviors will ensure that it never dies, and only escalates.  And the thing about escalating, sustained drama is that it has a tendency to draw other people in to it.  Which, in turn, only increases the level of drama.

And what is the result?  The overall quality of the board suffers.  Most members here (as shown through the recent poll) are not interested in the drama, and wish it would stop.  The quaility suffers to the point that some posters who have made creative and impressive contributions to the board have decided that it's just not worth their time anymore.  And so, the board suffers again.

Simply put, the fact that neither TTM nor Nigel will ever back down or make a concession to the social community of PD.com ensures that the community, as a whole, will suffer.

It doesn't matter who started it at this point, it only matters who's willing to make the effort to stop it.  Because it is an effort.  But you'll be doing PD.com a huge service through that effort.

I can't make you.  I probably can't even convince you.  Hell, I can't even threaten you.  But if neither of you are willing to make the effort, I will blame both of you for what happens to the board because of it.

[Pariah]

Wait there's recent drama somewhere in this board?

Since I didn't notice it's not happening.

[Cramulus]

Hi guys,

it's me, your buddy Cramulus.

I don't have a lot to say on this matter. I really wish there were some great diplomatic thing I could say that would help get this board back on the "right track". We've had a lot of these little "what's wrong with the board" summits over the past few months, with increasing frequency as the weeks go on. (remember all the Fluff vs Content debacle? etc etc) The reason we keep having them is because we haven't actually changed our collective behavior. There's no new information being introduced so nobody's changed how they interact. So I'm hesitant to revisit the "rhetorical solution" to our problems because I don't think talking about it is actually making it better. It just becomes more fodder for drama.

But I will say a few things that I need to get off my chest.

And first to Nigel, because I like you quite a bit---

I had hesitated to get involved in this recent wave because I consider us friends IRL and I didn't want to seem like I was teaming up with TTM against you. So please understand that I say this as a buddy - I've felt you've been really quick to fly off the handle recently, and it's made me distance myself from you. You've been flying from thread to thread starting shit with people. Even people like me and LMNO who haven't really done anything to deserve the level of vitriol we've received. We were having a rational discussion and then you burst into ad hominems.

Like a few weeks ago you told me (repeatedly) to go fuck myself with a fistfull of shit. It was an unexpected and explosive level of emotion.

Or the other day, in the Sufficiently advanced photoshop is indistinguishable from magic thread, you insisted on jacking the thread to talk about how you hate clients and DIE HUMANITY I HATE YOU ALL when we were just trying to talk about photoshop.

It makes me go, "ehhhh maybe it's best not to talk to nigel because she's clearly having one of those days where she's searching for a target."

So while this thread is primarily about the drama between you and TTM, in the larger context, TTM is acting as a symbol for the backlash against the emotional whirlwind you've been riding on. You never seem to hold back, as of late, from indulging the destructive trip.

And I like you and I like reading your posts so I want it to stop.


What is the solution to all of this?

Cain already said it really clearly:

...stuff like this is killing PD.  It is driving away good members, making sure good members work is ignored (the point behind my earlier mention of Sepia) and causing aminosity and feelings of vengeance to flourish.  No site will last long with that as a basis, without a basic core of respect for the impact an individual's actions can have on the larger community, which is exactly what is happening here, and has been happening here for the past couple of years. 

If people are not willing to put aside their petty greivances, not indulge in every sarcastic or hurtful comment that comes into their minds, not assume the worst of each other all the time, not crank up every argument into something of cosmic importance....then this place is done.  Over.  Might still be some posting, but it's as good as dead.  Some of the best are already starting to turn away and fall into apathy concerning this place. 

I agree 100%

and then, as if to prove his point, Roger immediately told him to choke on a dick and compared him to Ari Fleisher.. 

and then cain flounced, and I'm not surprised, because that was exactly what he was talking about

and then paes flounced

and a few weeks ago we lost Broken AI / Horrendous Love Stoat

and ratatosk isn't posting and khara isn't posting and I'm sure there are more

and there will be more leaves of absence and more flounces, I guarantee it


This place used to be nicknamed "NO EXIT". Hell is Other People [ITT].


all too appropriate

but now we have a better word for it

"Hey, kid. Welcome to Prison."




my friends,

I'D LIKE TO INVITE YOU TO A JAIL BREAK.



love,



cramulus

[Doktor Howl]

and then, as if to prove his point, Roger immediately told him to choke on a dick and compared him to Ari Fleisher.. 

Perhaps you misunderstood me.  That was in reference to his threats to destroy/erase the board if he wasn't listened to.

[Cramulus]

still - it was escalatory.

you used a shotgun where a scalpel would have done the job

you used a FUCK YOU where an "I do understand where you're coming from" would have done the job


this is not limited to you - it's a microcosm of the cancer present in our collective communication habits

it's precisely what repels people from giving a shit

[Triple Zero]

Okay, wow, Cramulus just said pretty much exactly what I wanted to say. (two posts back)

It is not about whether TTM abused his mod powers. TTM picked a name for the new thread when he split it off from his own thread (which is something anybody can ask a mod to do provided they started the thread). And this was supposedly mod-abuse because the first post in the new thread was Nigels so she could edit the title of that new thread back. And that is why TTM should not be a mod??? Durrrrrrrr

Which is changing the subject.

It is what I said before, that it is NOT OKAY to start looking for fights just because you happen to be in a mood where you hate the whole world. If you need to vent by arguing and fighting with people DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE, trolling is for OTHER PLACES, DO NOT SHIT WHERE YOU EAT, etc.

Right now I would just like if Nigel could in the future refrain from actively looking for drama whenever the mood strikes her. Please. Not when Requia says quotes wikipedia on some cult or other, and you are looking for a fight. Not when someone starts a thread about a brilliant new Photoshop feature and you jack it by stating you "hate clients" and start attacking the art of digital photo manipulation as well as insulting photographers that use panorama stitching software. And not even when you just feel like letting everybody know that "I hate you all and wish you would die".

BTW, I do agree that words like "desperate whore" or "slut" cross a line and are unacceptable, especially when you mean what they say (just like calling someone a "sociopath", really). Additionally, words like "vacuous cunt" are much more funny and creative.

He also explodes into rather gratifying levels of hysteria with very little prodding.

I am honestly not sure I can resist the temptation.

"Look what you made me do !". You just gotta try and not shit where you eat. Everybody else seems housebroken enough. Or if you really just cannot help it, we could just, you know, flame the fuck out of you when you cannot resist and "it just happens", just like you (and others) do whenever Enki cannot resist asking an ill-worded question about social norms he is unable to fathom.

Ummmmm yeah. Breaaaathe in, trip.

Okay.

Having a bad day? Be a cranky dick, just be overt about it. Having a fragile day? Be a fucking piece of porcelain, just be overt about it, because one thing I noticed is that people would accept aggressive hyperbole as aggressive hyperbole and fuck you back and laugh it off

THIS. This is exactly the kind of thing that started all this drama everybody gets so fucking tired of. If you are having a bad day, it is NOT OKAY to spag up random threads with being a dick, aggressive hyperbole, overt or not. What you call "aggressive hyperbole" is really only funny to yourself, because it is practically indistinguishable from you being actually angry, and even if it was, and even if I'd care enough to look for it, it's still trolling for drama.

Being aggressive in a "just kidding" fashion is a 101% certain way to cause drama on this board. FACT. So if you care, just don't do it anymore.

[Doktor Howl]

still - it was escalatory.

Possibly, though I'm not sure that anything escalates beyond "I am not enjoying myself anymore, I think I may destroy the board", his original tack.

you used a shotgun where a scalpel would have done the job

Tried using a scalpel.  I asked him to clarify his position.  It's right there for you to read.

you used a FUCK YOU where an "I understand where you're coming from" would have done the job

I've done that in the past, in the Pedantry thread, for example.  He ignored it completely.  In this thread, I asked him more than once if he was serious.  

this is not limited to you - it's a microcosm of the cancer present in our collective communication habits

I'm a cancer cell?  

it's precisely what repels people from giving a shit

I have been called out many times when I have stepped on my dick.  Many times far more publicly than this.  Cain has been upset for months because his threads don't seem to him to be getting the attention they deserve.  Then he states that because people won't listen to him, and because he isn't enjoying the board, his inclination is to destroy it.

Let's just pretend *I* said that.

"I've had it with this bickering, there's no content.  I think I will erase the entire board, because none of you listen.  It's the only way to get your attention."

You'd come down on me like a ton of bricks, and you know it.  And I'd deserve it.

[Doktor Howl]

It occurs to me that I cannot be right, in this or any other thing.  I am amazed that I haven't seen this before.  No matter how outrageous the thing I am reacting to is I, am the fucking bad guy.  There are not only two standards here, there are at least three.

Fuck it, you guys figure it out.    I see no benefit to participating, since the verdict on me was in before I even posted.

[LMNO]

Hey, a small request:  Before everything collapses/gets nuked, could you please wait until I finish all 30 days of my SME project?




It's all I have left.


Well, that and the Spider Project.  Which has been on hold due to Frost Heaves business.



But still.  I'd like to actually finish the thing with the majority of PD.com intact before everyone decides to call it a day and find other boards to post on.


Call it an appeal for sympathy.  I have a soft spot in my heart for the place, and I'd like to finish this damn thing while my electronic friends are still around.

[Cramulus]

It occurs to me that I cannot be right, in this or any other thing.  I am amazed that I haven't seen this before.  No matter how outrageous the thing I am reacting to is I, am the fucking bad guy.  There are not only two standards here, there are at least three.

Fuck it, you guys figure it out.    I see no benefit to participating, since the verdict on me was in before I even posted.

I understand where you're coming from. Before I even posted that, I knew my suggestion that we refrain from shitting on each other was going to be met with really great justifications for shitting on one another.


as I said, I'm not trying to paint you as the bad guy. I'm trying to illustrate what kind of communications interfere with cooperation towards a better board. It's not just you, it's just an example of the escalatory communication feedback loop which is the NORM at principiadiscordia.com/forum.

[Doktor Howl]

Hey, a small request:  Before everything collapses/gets nuked, could you please wait until I finish all 30 days of my SME project?




It's all I have left.


Well, that and the Spider Project.  Which has been on hold due to Frost Heaves business.



But still.  I'd like to actually finish the thing with the majority of PD.com intact before everyone decides to call it a day and find other boards to post on.


Call it an appeal for sympathy.  I have a soft spot in my heart for the place, and I'd like to finish this damn thing while my electronic friends are still around.

I'm staying.  Can't speak for anyone else.

[Thurnez Isa]

Im staying, despite Ill be busy till the end of the month
We've been through worse. After everyone says their piece it will all go back to normal

[Doktor Howl]

It occurs to me that I cannot be right, in this or any other thing.  I am amazed that I haven't seen this before.  No matter how outrageous the thing I am reacting to is I, am the fucking bad guy.  There are not only two standards here, there are at least three.

Fuck it, you guys figure it out.    I see no benefit to participating, since the verdict on me was in before I even posted.

I understand where you're coming from. Before I even posted that, I knew my suggestion that we refrain from shitting on each other was going to be met with really great justifications for shitting on one another.


as I said, I'm not trying to paint you as the bad guy. I'm trying to illustrate what kind of communications interfere with cooperation towards a better board. It's not just you, it's just an example of the escalatory communication feedback loop which is the NORM at principiadiscordia.com/forum.

Well, I kind of read your placing the wrong context on my "Ari Fleisher" comment as assigning blame, especially when you clarified it as escalatory.

It's really fucking simple.  Two people got in a fight, which was bad.  It was made worse by everyone jumping in...in some cases, the same people that later started flouncing out of "disgust".  Then one admin threatened to trash the board itself because he doesn't think he's received his due, and because all the other mods and admins are incompetent...the board only had good days because he and he alone made it so.  His own words.  This apparently gives him the right to destroy 8 years of amazingly creative shit.

I made every effort throughout the Nigel/TTM thing to be a calming influence, but when one guy decides he can wreck years of writing as a means to throw his toys out of the pram, I thought - and still think - it was time to speak up.  I seem to be alone in this, so I guess I'll just back off and let everyone tell Cain how right he is, and hope that Faust is keeping up on the backups.